Post-Riot Act Moneygrab

[hlniv]

Eddie Vedder has a fraction of the talent that Springsteen has, so please stop the comparisons.

Magic is a mid tier, latter period Bruce album that is still better than anything PJ put out.

PJ put out some pretty damn good records in the good ol' 1990's. You may want to check some of it out.

As to Ed having a fraction of the talent of the Boss, I agree. I think it's a fairly significant fraction, but still, a fraction nonetheless. Maybe like eleven-sixteenths. How's that for a fraction?

I think you two are missing the biggest factor here. Ed's greatest talent he brought was his voice and that has diminished with time. I don't think here's near the lyricist he once was but neither is Bruce. Bruce's biggest talents were songwriting and band leadership, the formar has diminished some but he's still the best band leader out there.

Eh. I could argue his voice is much better now than it was in 94-96. And I'd say it's on par with 1998-2000. It certainly is diminished a bit, though now, from the two peaks of his vocal performance, the first being his youthful energetic perfection from 91-93, and the other being the 2006 tour.

I don't think his lyrical abilities have changed all that much, although his style and themes certainly have expanded into areas that may not be best suited for him. Granted, I think he was better suited for the style and themes of early PJ, but I think songs like Getaway, The End, Swallowed Whole, Mind Your Manners, all hold their own lyrically against early tunes like Animal, Rats, STBC, Satan's Bed, Nothingman, etc... at least in terms of lyrical quality and melody.

Where Ed is much less talented is the leadership category. Pearl Jam has always struggled with direction and organization, and I think that is where Ed has failed more than anything.

[lecherouslittlestump]

The thing about Eddie cosying up to Bruce is interesting. Bruce was washed up in the 90s. Released shitty adult contemporary albums (apart from Tom Joad) and was irrelevant.

Come the 00s, Bruce has a massive comeback with The Rising and seals his position as some sort of elder statesman of rock. This is also the time where Vedders love of Bruce suddenly becomes apparent.

Yeah its cynical and to be honest I don't really buy into it...but Vedder has a talent for making friends with the 'right' rock stars.

[Mine]

Where Ed is much less talented is the leadership category. Pearl Jam has always struggled with direction and organization, and I think that is where Ed has failed more than anything.

Leadership isn't something he could have realistically done any different with this band unless Stone and Jeff left.

[Mine]

Interesting theory

I think this largely is true. Using Man of the Hour as an example, the demo is pretty much the finished product. In Man of the Hour's case, it is a great song but how many guitar picking the same melody line as Ed's singing does the band need? This type song can play to a strength of Ed's but they don't bring out anywhere near the best in anyone else in the band.

I agree. The question is whether or not this reflects a limitation on Eddie's type of writing or limitations from the other members of the band

I don't see it so much as limitations on anyone's skills but more a band dynamic situation where it is presented as a complete song and just play what's on the demo kind of thing. I don't think the band members are given much chance to add their input on some songs but really, that's pure speculation based on hearing a couple demos.

I think what is known from the early days is telling. Stone and Jeff had a problem with Ed shaping the music on Vitalogy and later No Code, in Jeff's words telling them what to play. I'm convinced that if at the time either of them was able to do the same they would have. I don't think they bring in ideas instead of songs as a rule because they're super nice and like to give the other guys room to play. It's a matter of creative processes of them as individuals.
Also there isn't a song written in a way that renders any even mayor change in the arrangement impossible. It can always be done by someone who has the skills and vision. Most of PJ doesn't. Stone for example really knows how to find his place in a song with good taste.
I wonder if the demo of Speed Of Sound was released because Ed wasn't satisfied with what the bend did with it. And that song is an example of what I'm talking about. They have enough experience to come up with an arrangement that is better than the demo but i guess the talent or good taste isn't there by the rule.

[stupidmop]

I bet stone doesnt bring in full songs cause he's still bitter about no way.

[bodysnatcher]

I bet stone doesnt bring in full songs cause he's still bitter about no way.

interesting... except that he never wants to play it live. i don't think he likes that song

[Norah]

I was just going to post that.

[stupidmop]

I bet stone doesnt bring in full songs cause he's still bitter about no way.

interesting... except that he never wants to play it live. i don't think he likes that song

Yeah cause ed added two words that changed the meaning of the song entirely and then named the song after said two words. I imagine it stung a little.

Or maybe he just doesn't care for it.

[VinylGuy]

I bet stone doesnt bring in full songs cause he's still bitter about no way.

bitter why?

[bodysnatcher]

guys if there's anyone in the band that is bitter, it's Brendan O'Brien

[bodysnatcher]

also, imagine how pissed Boom is. the only song he has writing credits for, they've barely played it in the last 7-8 years. dude is missing out on some royalties from bootleg sales.

[digster]

To be honest, I think a lot of the arrangement issues could be cured if Ed didn't necessarily play on the songs he writes. It'd free up more space for arrangements, and though he's a good guitar player, his tone live has been shitty for years now. There's plenty of guys (Bono, Springsteen at times) who write songs that they don't necessarily play on live. That idea wouldn't be without exception; some songs, Corduroy or Insignificance for example, I think can benefit from three guitars onstage.

[LetMeSleep]

To be honest, I think a lot of the arrangement issues could be cured if Ed didn't necessarily play on the songs he writes. It'd free up more space for arrangements, and though he's a good guitar player, his tone live has been shitty for years now. There's plenty of guys (Bono, Springsteen at times) who write songs that they don't necessarily play on live. That idea wouldn't be without exception; some songs, Corduroy or Insignificance for example, I think can benefit from three guitars onstage.

I agree here.

[Mine]

I bet stone doesnt bring in full songs cause he's still bitter about no way.

interesting... except that he never wants to play it live. i don't think he likes that song

Yeah cause ed added two words that changed the meaning of the song entirely and then named the song after said two words. I imagine it stung a little.

Or maybe he just doesn't care for it.

Hasn't this happen with Fatal?

[Norah]

Stone should release an album where he performs Pearl Jam songs he authored in the way he imagined them.

[RemusLillian]

now that you're 8 posts in, didn't Eddie largely take control of the band during Vitalogy? And guitar tone aside, you can accuse Eddie of a lot of things, but he does work his ass off during the live shows. And by all accounts they've been fantastic this tour.

Yes, It all starts around Vitalogy, but I was speaking on a purely musical contribution to the band. Betterman, Immortality etc. are fine songs, well executed. Moving on through No Code, In My Tree/Sometimes are the same style, still well executed, with the Jack Irons factor to give them a bit of a twist. Once we move into Riot Act onwards, 6/7 albums in, Eddies songwriting hasn't really evolved and he's still bringing in the same type of song, and there's only so much the band can do with these power chord strum alongs. When you look at the Ed songs in the PJ catalogue, generally speaking, there's a bit of a same-ness to all of them, and I guess it's just becoming boring now, especially as more of them are appearing on albums.

We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, it may well be that Stone is a lazy fuck and has only brought one song to the table for Lightning Bolt, hence the abundance of Ed songs, but when you listen to things like Cold Concession leaking from the black hole of 10C HQ, I personally would rather have a fleshed out/finished version of that on LB than Sleeping By Myself or Future Days, because in his own words, musically for the band, it's evolution baby.

The live argument is an interesting one. As a band they are on fire this tour it would seem in terms of performance levels, but as has been the case for most of the last decade, they seem woefully under-rehearsed and it does stop the shows being as great as they can be. I guess when you pay the money you do to see PJ, especially with the travel costs involved when you live in Europe (my most local show was hundreds of miles away), I'd like Ed to take better care of his voice, and maybe not drink 2 bottles of wine a show. That's not very rock n' roll, but is Ed not meant to be the anti-rock n' roll cliche poster boy? The arguments for and against could go on for years, and most of it is down to personal preference.

Ed started taking control over the band on Vs. Going by what the band says Ed made songs out of "ideas" they brought in. Songwriting doesn't mean "what the guitars do". Ed's strengths as a songwriter are in the melodies and what he did with what the other guys weren't able to evolve beyond what they define as idea. He's good because when he's good he composes songs that work as a whole and beyond a single isolated part. If the thing Jeff did with a power chord strum along is what ended up being the verse of Gateway then long live power chord strum alongs. That verse melody is embarrassing since the lyrics aren't about a happy go lucky girl picking flowers which is exactly what his contribution made it sound like.
PJ's weakness today are all the shit they get themselves and people around them away with which isn't limited to the music.

I agree, that is where Ed's strengths lie, with taking the ideas the guys bring in to the next level. The problem is the songs he brings in, which the band are unable to elevate in the same way.

Because they don't have the talent to. It's not the power chord strums that are the issue. Generally the more they add to his songs the worse they end up.

I've confused myself now, who's fault is this all again?

[bodysnatcher]

now that you're 8 posts in, didn't Eddie largely take control of the band during Vitalogy? And guitar tone aside, you can accuse Eddie of a lot of things, but he does work his ass off during the live shows. And by all accounts they've been fantastic this tour.

Yes, It all starts around Vitalogy, but I was speaking on a purely musical contribution to the band. Betterman, Immortality etc. are fine songs, well executed. Moving on through No Code, In My Tree/Sometimes are the same style, still well executed, with the Jack Irons factor to give them a bit of a twist. Once we move into Riot Act onwards, 6/7 albums in, Eddies songwriting hasn't really evolved and he's still bringing in the same type of song, and there's only so much the band can do with these power chord strum alongs. When you look at the Ed songs in the PJ catalogue, generally speaking, there's a bit of a same-ness to all of them, and I guess it's just becoming boring now, especially as more of them are appearing on albums.

We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, it may well be that Stone is a lazy fuck and has only brought one song to the table for Lightning Bolt, hence the abundance of Ed songs, but when you listen to things like Cold Concession leaking from the black hole of 10C HQ, I personally would rather have a fleshed out/finished version of that on LB than Sleeping By Myself or Future Days, because in his own words, musically for the band, it's evolution baby.

The live argument is an interesting one. As a band they are on fire this tour it would seem in terms of performance levels, but as has been the case for most of the last decade, they seem woefully under-rehearsed and it does stop the shows being as great as they can be. I guess when you pay the money you do to see PJ, especially with the travel costs involved when you live in Europe (my most local show was hundreds of miles away), I'd like Ed to take better care of his voice, and maybe not drink 2 bottles of wine a show. That's not very rock n' roll, but is Ed not meant to be the anti-rock n' roll cliche poster boy? The arguments for and against could go on for years, and most of it is down to personal preference.

Ed started taking control over the band on Vs. Going by what the band says Ed made songs out of "ideas" they brought in. Songwriting doesn't mean "what the guitars do". Ed's strengths as a songwriter are in the melodies and what he did with what the other guys weren't able to evolve beyond what they define as idea. He's good because when he's good he composes songs that work as a whole and beyond a single isolated part. If the thing Jeff did with a power chord strum along is what ended up being the verse of Gateway then long live power chord strum alongs. That verse melody is embarrassing since the lyrics aren't about a happy go lucky girl picking flowers which is exactly what his contribution made it sound like.
PJ's weakness today are all the shit they get themselves and people around them away with which isn't limited to the music.

I agree, that is where Ed's strengths lie, with taking the ideas the guys bring in to the next level. The problem is the songs he brings in, which the band are unable to elevate in the same way.

Because they don't have the talent to. It's not the power chord strums that are the issue. Generally the more they add to his songs the worse they end up.

I've confused myself now, who's fault is this all again?

[RemusLillian]

now that you're 8 posts in, didn't Eddie largely take control of the band during Vitalogy? And guitar tone aside, you can accuse Eddie of a lot of things, but he does work his ass off during the live shows. And by all accounts they've been fantastic this tour.

Yes, It all starts around Vitalogy, but I was speaking on a purely musical contribution to the band. Betterman, Immortality etc. are fine songs, well executed. Moving on through No Code, In My Tree/Sometimes are the same style, still well executed, with the Jack Irons factor to give them a bit of a twist. Once we move into Riot Act onwards, 6/7 albums in, Eddies songwriting hasn't really evolved and he's still bringing in the same type of song, and there's only so much the band can do with these power chord strum alongs. When you look at the Ed songs in the PJ catalogue, generally speaking, there's a bit of a same-ness to all of them, and I guess it's just becoming boring now, especially as more of them are appearing on albums.

We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, it may well be that Stone is a lazy fuck and has only brought one song to the table for Lightning Bolt, hence the abundance of Ed songs, but when you listen to things like Cold Concession leaking from the black hole of 10C HQ, I personally would rather have a fleshed out/finished version of that on LB than Sleeping By Myself or Future Days, because in his own words, musically for the band, it's evolution baby.

The live argument is an interesting one. As a band they are on fire this tour it would seem in terms of performance levels, but as has been the case for most of the last decade, they seem woefully under-rehearsed and it does stop the shows being as great as they can be. I guess when you pay the money you do to see PJ, especially with the travel costs involved when you live in Europe (my most local show was hundreds of miles away), I'd like Ed to take better care of his voice, and maybe not drink 2 bottles of wine a show. That's not very rock n' roll, but is Ed not meant to be the anti-rock n' roll cliche poster boy? The arguments for and against could go on for years, and most of it is down to personal preference.

Ed started taking control over the band on Vs. Going by what the band says Ed made songs out of "ideas" they brought in. Songwriting doesn't mean "what the guitars do". Ed's strengths as a songwriter are in the melodies and what he did with what the other guys weren't able to evolve beyond what they define as idea. He's good because when he's good he composes songs that work as a whole and beyond a single isolated part. If the thing Jeff did with a power chord strum along is what ended up being the verse of Gateway then long live power chord strum alongs. That verse melody is embarrassing since the lyrics aren't about a happy go lucky girl picking flowers which is exactly what his contribution made it sound like.
PJ's weakness today are all the shit they get themselves and people around them away with which isn't limited to the music.

I agree, that is where Ed's strengths lie, with taking the ideas the guys bring in to the next level. The problem is the songs he brings in, which the band are unable to elevate in the same way.

Because they don't have the talent to. It's not the power chord strums that are the issue. Generally the more they add to his songs the worse they end up.

I've confused myself now, who's fault is this all again?

Oh yeah, that cunt.

[Mine]

To be honest, I think a lot of the arrangement issues could be cured if Ed didn't necessarily play on the songs he writes. It'd free up more space for arrangements, and though he's a good guitar player, his tone live has been shitty for years now. There's plenty of guys (Bono, Springsteen at times) who write songs that they don't necessarily play on live. That idea wouldn't be without exception; some songs, Corduroy or Insignificance for example, I think can benefit from three guitars onstage.

I don't think this is a strong point generally. I think 3 guitars can work just fine together again it depends on the arrangement. To go back at my point if whoever is writing the arrangement isn't particularly talented is going to be a mess of guitars fighting with each other. I don't think this has been an issue with Ed's guitar heavy songs up to Avocado. If anything those parts are to simplistic especially for a guitar player but i think it's a stylistic choice to write the arrangements in this way rather than an inability to do otherwise. Roughly he layered more simple parts rather than having a big riff as the focus.

[Mine]

now that you're 8 posts in, didn't Eddie largely take control of the band during Vitalogy? And guitar tone aside, you can accuse Eddie of a lot of things, but he does work his ass off during the live shows. And by all accounts they've been fantastic this tour.

Yes, It all starts around Vitalogy, but I was speaking on a purely musical contribution to the band. Betterman, Immortality etc. are fine songs, well executed. Moving on through No Code, In My Tree/Sometimes are the same style, still well executed, with the Jack Irons factor to give them a bit of a twist. Once we move into Riot Act onwards, 6/7 albums in, Eddies songwriting hasn't really evolved and he's still bringing in the same type of song, and there's only so much the band can do with these power chord strum alongs. When you look at the Ed songs in the PJ catalogue, generally speaking, there's a bit of a same-ness to all of them, and I guess it's just becoming boring now, especially as more of them are appearing on albums.

We have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, it may well be that Stone is a lazy fuck and has only brought one song to the table for Lightning Bolt, hence the abundance of Ed songs, but when you listen to things like Cold Concession leaking from the black hole of 10C HQ, I personally would rather have a fleshed out/finished version of that on LB than Sleeping By Myself or Future Days, because in his own words, musically for the band, it's evolution baby.

The live argument is an interesting one. As a band they are on fire this tour it would seem in terms of performance levels, but as has been the case for most of the last decade, they seem woefully under-rehearsed and it does stop the shows being as great as they can be. I guess when you pay the money you do to see PJ, especially with the travel costs involved when you live in Europe (my most local show was hundreds of miles away), I'd like Ed to take better care of his voice, and maybe not drink 2 bottles of wine a show. That's not very rock n' roll, but is Ed not meant to be the anti-rock n' roll cliche poster boy? The arguments for and against could go on for years, and most of it is down to personal preference.

Ed started taking control over the band on Vs. Going by what the band says Ed made songs out of "ideas" they brought in. Songwriting doesn't mean "what the guitars do". Ed's strengths as a songwriter are in the melodies and what he did with what the other guys weren't able to evolve beyond what they define as idea. He's good because when he's good he composes songs that work as a whole and beyond a single isolated part. If the thing Jeff did with a power chord strum along is what ended up being the verse of Gateway then long live power chord strum alongs. That verse melody is embarrassing since the lyrics aren't about a happy go lucky girl picking flowers which is exactly what his contribution made it sound like.
PJ's weakness today are all the shit they get themselves and people around them away with which isn't limited to the music.

I agree, that is where Ed's strengths lie, with taking the ideas the guys bring in to the next level. The problem is the songs he brings in, which the band are unable to elevate in the same way.

Because they don't have the talent to. It's not the power chord strums that are the issue. Generally the more they add to his songs the worse they end up.

I've confused myself now, who's fault is this all again?

Doesn't saying "the band are unable to elevate" imply they lack the skills to?