Post-Riot Act Moneygrab

[Angus]

Don't we all want to be liked?

[hlniv]

The decision to not include Sad on Binaural was precisely due to the leadership that I am referring to, i.e. it would have been to much of a "hit". Undone or Down would have made Riot Act even more political, and didn't really fit the tone of the album. The reasons these songs were left off had more to do with unifying leadership, than a lack of it. Even if Binaural or Riot Act would have been better with a couple of those b-sides, I understand and respect the thoughtful reason for most of the omissions.

How were these decisions any different than:
Let It Ride & Cold Concession left off of S/T
Pendulum left off of Backspacer
Of The Earth off of Lightning Bolt

Was their leadership involved in those ommissions?

They were all short sighted decisions to keep the albums as accessible and concise as possible. Much different type of direction

So, there's no "leadership" involved when making a decision to make an album "as accessible and concise as possible"?

I never said there wasn't "leadership", I said it wasn't very well done, and it wasn't "unifying". The only common thread apparently within the band direction in the last 10 years has been the pursuit of success, both monetary and maintaining the fanbase. They don't appear to be striving for anything else. Having the goals of accessibility and conciseness is not all that motivating, and probably doesn't generate that many exciting new ideas.

I think everyone just kind of shows up now when its convenient and becomes Pearl Jam for a few weeks/months at a time and that's it. Which is fine, I guess, but it's a gross departure from 10+ years ago.

[Tuolumne]

So PJ just want to be liked?

I liked them better when they didn't want to be liked.

Me, too.

I think the band as you see them now is how they were originally. Relieved of the pressure of suffocating fame, they feel free to want success. When you see/read what they did to promote Ten, before it got really crazy around the summer of '92, they were pretty naively unabashedly enjoying trying to get people to like them and they got excited about it. It just got crazy out of control and they flipped out. Now, life is back to normal. Am I saying anything new here? We all know this, right?

[Sgt. Crackpot]

We're just a bunch of poindexters sitting around chewing gum.

[hlniv]

So PJ just want to be liked?

I liked them better when they didn't want to be liked.

Me, too.

I think the band as you see them now is how they were originally. Relieved of the pressure of suffocating fame, they feel free to want success. When you see/read what they did to promote Ten, before it got really crazy around the summer of '92, they were pretty naively unabashedly enjoying trying to get people to like them and they got excited about it. It just got crazy out of control and they flipped out. Now, life is back to normal. Am I saying anything new here? We all know this, right?

You are exactly right. I'm sure they money-grabbed the shit out of those first two years from the fall of 1990 to the fall of 1992.

I tend to think of my idealistic Pearl Jam in the terms of when I really got into them, which was 93-95. My first experiences with them were during their "pull-back" period, and I really fell in love with that. They were just about the music and the live show. Even when they went back to Ticketmaster tours in 2000/2003 and expanded the political element of their music, they still didn't start to lose the core of what attracted me until 2006 or so. And there's still a lot that remains, but I know I never could have become the fan i have off of the last ten years' output alone.

[Mine]

I think the re-issues and PJ20 reminded a lot of folk that "hey, we're still alive". I think that reminder plus the festival touring esp in Europe helped maintain their record sales.

It didn't as far as i can tell. They're a fan's band even if they sell records and tickets with roughly the same success as in the US. This is why i often wonder if any of their records being considered strong or classic by the general public is an exaggeration in the sense that i think the general public can maybe name 1 of their records but consider it a proper classic...i don't know. A lot of this has to do with promotion and media exposure so I'm not making a judgement about the music here.

[digster]

This is completely speculative, but I think it might be possible for PJ's middle period (the Vitalogy-Yield run) to start getting its due. It'll never eclipse Ten of course, but more and more I'm seeing publications that are pointing to songs from those albums (and the albums in general) as being very worthwhile. This is a big change from a few years ago; I would've said then that every album post-Ten is going to be lost to time. But I can see those records being remembered fondly in the way that R.E.M.'s post-Automatic 90's records have come to be.

[Mine]

This is completely speculative, but I think it might be possible for PJ's middle period (the Vitalogy-Yield run) to start getting its due. It'll never eclipse Ten of course, but more and more I'm seeing publications that are pointing to songs from those albums (and the albums in general) as being very worthwhile. This is a big change from a few years ago; I would've said then that every album post-Ten is going to be lost to time. But I can see those records being remembered fondly in the way that R.E.M.'s post-Automatic 90's records have come to be.

This is true but it seems most of the reviews and articles are written by people who are fans. I think this is happening because well they are still a successful band and attributing this longevity to Ten and touring only would sound idiotic. I think they're considered a band with a relatively strong discography at this point.

[red calzolaio]

i like Pearl Jam.

[Tuolumne]

This is completely speculative, but I think it might be possible for PJ's middle period (the Vitalogy-Yield run) to start getting its due. It'll never eclipse Ten of course, but more and more I'm seeing publications that are pointing to songs from those albums (and the albums in general) as being very worthwhile. This is a big change from a few years ago; I would've said then that every album post-Ten is going to be lost to time. But I can see those records being remembered fondly in the way that R.E.M.'s post-Automatic 90's records have come to be.

Oh yeah, this is why I like artists moving along in stages and periods and what makes following a band for so many years fun. We're in a different period now (one I personally like), and being in a different period creates a desire to appreciate the period that has gone away. When we were in the middle period, people got wistful about the Ten/Vs days and us hardcore fans stuck even harder to the middle period thinking "they're missing out". Now we're in another period, and people are stepping out of the woodwork and starting to get wistful about the Vitalogy - Riot Act years. It's just part of the nature of any artist that stays around for decades. One day we might be in another period in the future getting wistful about the "big rock" happening with the band now (maybe they'll settle back into another more subtler period when they're pushing 60, we'll see).

[LetMeSleep]

Also, the band's side projects scratch the theatre side of things leaving PJ to scratch the arena/stadium itch. ho hum.

I say this as I buy tickets to EV solo in a theatre I'd love to see PJ play. The same theatre I saw Brad play.

[Tuolumne]

Also, the band's side projects scratch the theatre side of things leaving PJ to scratch the arena/stadium itch. ho hum.

I say this as I buy tickets to EV solo in a theatre I'd love to see PJ play. The same theatre I saw Brad play.

I stated this earlier in the thread, but I think PJ belongs and is best heard in arenas and big places, and I think they know this. Otherwise, in the smaller setting, they're competing with people who master subtlety way better than them. They're students of rock enough to know where they're strengths are, where they kick ass, and where they're not as good. They're one of the best arena-bands ever, they'd be a pretty good theatre/club band.

[digster]

Oh yeah, this is why I like artists moving along in stages and periods and what makes following a band for so many years fun. We're in a different period now (one I personally like), and being in a different period creates a desire to appreciate the period that has gone away. When we were in the middle period, people got wistful about the Ten/Vs days and us hardcore fans stuck even harder to the middle period thinking "they're missing out". Now we're in another period, and people are stepping out of the woodwork and starting to get wistful about the Vitalogy - Riot Act years. It's just part of the nature of any artist that stays around for decades. One day we might be in another period in the future getting wistful about the "big rock" happening with the band now (maybe they'll settle back into another more subtler period when they're pushing 60, we'll see).

I don't really mind either way where they get the inspiration from, but it's hard for me to argue that the quality of their music deteriorated when they made this change. I'm not saying it's due to them making that shift, but it's still notable.

[LetMeSleep]

Also, the band's side projects scratch the theatre side of things leaving PJ to scratch the arena/stadium itch. ho hum.

I say this as I buy tickets to EV solo in a theatre I'd love to see PJ play. The same theatre I saw Brad play.

I stated this earlier in the thread, but I think PJ belongs and is best heard in arenas and big places, and I think they know this. Otherwise, in the smaller setting, they're competing with people who master subtlety way better than them. They're students of rock enough to know where they're strengths are, where they kick ass, and where they're not as good. They're one of the best arena-bands ever, they'd be a pretty good theatre/club band.

True but I would like them to explore that area of their catalogue. The dark nooks and crannies. All Or None. In Hiding. You Are. Parachutes. Army Reserve. Of The Girl. Thin Air. Otherside. These would work a treat in a theatre and would only be complemented by Corduroy, Alive etc. It's not a complete overhaul, just a slight realignment.

[digster]

Also, the band's side projects scratch the theatre side of things leaving PJ to scratch the arena/stadium itch. ho hum.

I say this as I buy tickets to EV solo in a theatre I'd love to see PJ play. The same theatre I saw Brad play.

I stated this earlier in the thread, but I think PJ belongs and is best heard in arenas and big places, and I think they know this. Otherwise, in the smaller setting, they're competing with people who master subtlety way better than them. They're students of rock enough to know where they're strengths are, where they kick ass, and where they're not as good. They're one of the best arena-bands ever, they'd be a pretty good theatre/club band.

I'm not sure about this either. One of their, if not their best tour ever (spring '94) had quite a few theater dates. And those are still quite big; I doubt anyone here is expecting to consistently see PJ at small clubs anytime soon.

[LetMeSleep]

A tour with capacities of 10,000 would be amazing. I've seen them at 12k, 75k, 22k and 4k places. The electricity in the smaller venues was astounding.

[Tuolumne]

Also, the band's side projects scratch the theatre side of things leaving PJ to scratch the arena/stadium itch. ho hum.

I say this as I buy tickets to EV solo in a theatre I'd love to see PJ play. The same theatre I saw Brad play.

I stated this earlier in the thread, but I think PJ belongs and is best heard in arenas and big places, and I think they know this. Otherwise, in the smaller setting, they're competing with people who master subtlety way better than them. They're students of rock enough to know where they're strengths are, where they kick ass, and where they're not as good. They're one of the best arena-bands ever, they'd be a pretty good theatre/club band.

True but I would like them to explore that area of their catalogue. The dark nooks and crannies. All Or None. In Hiding. You Are. Parachutes. Army Reserve. Of The Girl. Thin Air. Otherside. These would work a treat in a theatre and would only be complemented by Corduroy, Alive etc. It's not a complete overhaul, just a slight realignment.

For me, that'd be a good tour some day, but I dig them crushing the big places these days. They're showing everyone out there who's boss.

[injuddstree]

A tour with capacities of 10,000 would be amazing. I've seen them at 12k, 75k, 22k and 4k places. The electricity in the smaller venues was astounding.

This.

[stip]

So PJ just want to be liked?

I liked them better when they didn't want to be liked.

Me, too.

I think the band as you see them now is how they were originally. Relieved of the pressure of suffocating fame, they feel free to want success. When you see/read what they did to promote Ten, before it got really crazy around the summer of '92, they were pretty naively unabashedly enjoying trying to get people to like them and they got excited about it. It just got crazy out of control and they flipped out. Now, life is back to normal. Am I saying anything new here? We all know this, right?

You are exactly right. I'm sure they money-grabbed the shit out of those first two years from the fall of 1990 to the fall of 1992.

I tend to think of my idealistic Pearl Jam in the terms of when I really got into them, which was 93-95. My first experiences with them were during their "pull-back" period, and I really fell in love with that. They were just about the music and the live show. Even when they went back to Ticketmaster tours in 2000/2003 and expanded the political element of their music, they still didn't start to lose the core of what attracted me until 2006 or so. And there's still a lot that remains, but I know I never could have become the fan i have off of the last ten years' output alone.

There is little reason, I think, to doubt that their primary concern is the music and the live show. It just pulls in a direction you, and many, find less interesting. These years aren't anyone's favorites (and, it is worth pointing out, that the riot act and binaural records are fairly divisive too. Not to the same degree, but perhaps they were in their early years. Riot act probably was). I think their most vital years are behind them as well. I just draw that line at 1995. If anything I think they are reinvigorated, but still they are a band past their prime. Still good, often very good, sometimes great, bit past their prime.

But still, the fact that there is a different approach to songwriting, with a band that may have said its most important things, is really the central issue. Not that the music matters less. It is different, and for many not as good.

[harmless]

So PJ just want to be liked?

I liked them better when they didn't want to be liked.

Me, too.

I think the band as you see them now is how they were originally. Relieved of the pressure of suffocating fame, they feel free to want success. When you see/read what they did to promote Ten, before it got really crazy around the summer of '92, they were pretty naively unabashedly enjoying trying to get people to like them and they got excited about it. It just got crazy out of control and they flipped out. Now, life is back to normal. Am I saying anything new here? We all know this, right?

You are exactly right. I'm sure they money-grabbed the shit out of those first two years from the fall of 1990 to the fall of 1992.

I tend to think of my idealistic Pearl Jam in the terms of when I really got into them, which was 93-95. My first experiences with them were during their "pull-back" period, and I really fell in love with that. They were just about the music and the live show. Even when they went back to Ticketmaster tours in 2000/2003 and expanded the political element of their music, they still didn't start to lose the core of what attracted me until 2006 or so. And there's still a lot that remains, but I know I never could have become the fan i have off of the last ten years' output alone.

There is little reason, I think, to doubt that their primary concern is the music and the live show. It just pulls in a direction you, and many, find less interesting. These years aren't anyone's favorites (and, it is worth pointing out, that the riot act and binaural records are fairly divisive too. Not to the same degree, but perhaps they were in their early years. Riot act probably was). I think their most vital years are behind them as well. I just draw that line at 1995. If anything I think they are reinvigorated, but still they are a band past their prime. Still good, often very good, sometimes great, bit past their prime.

But still, the fact that there is a different approach to songwriting, with a band that may have said its most important things, is really the central issue. Not that the music matters less. It is different, and for many not as good.

Why can't you entertain the idea that it might matter less?