MLB

[numbers]

and for the record, no one is getting screwed worse than Tim Raines...

Yeah, at this rate he's not going to get in and he absolutely should. If he didn't do the majority of his damage in Montreal he would probably have been first ballot.

[EJ]

and for the record, no one is getting screwed worse than Tim Raines...

Yeah, at this rate he's not going to get in and he absolutely should. If he didn't do the majority of his damage in Montreal he would probably have been first ballot.

That, and he was always overshadowed by Rickey Henderson and Vince Coleman (for a couple years anyway.)

[MattA75]

and for the record, no one is getting screwed worse than Tim Raines...

Yeah, at this rate he's not going to get in and he absolutely should. If he didn't do the majority of his damage in Montreal he would probably have been first ballot.

That, and he was always overshadowed by Rickey Henderson and Vince Coleman (for a couple years anyway.)

he's the second best leadoff hitter of all time to Henderson...

[numbers]

Probably best base runner after Rickey, also. Which is the most undervalued part of the game when it comes to HOF voting.

[numbers]

Did I hear this right? Maddux and Glavine are the first starting pitchers that debuted after 1972 to be inducted?

[Peeps]

and for the record, no one is getting screwed worse than Tim Raines...

Yeah, at this rate he's not going to get in and he absolutely should. If he didn't do the majority of his damage in Montreal he would probably have been first ballot.

you dont think the drug thing hurts him?

[numbers]

Maybe it does, but it shouldn't really. You never really hear that as an argument against him.

[EJ]

Did I hear this right? Maddux and Glavine are the first starting pitchers that debuted after 1972 to be inducted?

Sure looks that way. The last 20 pitchers inducted:

Inducted Yrs From
1 Tom Glavine HOF 2014 22 1987
2 Greg? Maddux HOF 2014 23 1986
3 Hank O'Day HOF 2013 7 1884
4 Bert Blyleven HOF 2011 22 1970
5 Rich Gossage HOF 2008 22 1972
6 Bruce Sutter HOF 2006 12 1976
7 Dennis Eckersley HOF 2004 24 1975
8 Nolan Ryan HOF 1999 27 1966
9 Don Sutton HOF 1998 23 1966
10 Phil Niekro HOF 1997 24 1964
11 Jim Bunning HOF 1996 17 1955
12 Vic Willis HOF 1995 13 1898
13 Steve Carlton HOF 1994 24 1965
14 Rollie Fingers HOF 1992 17 1968
15 Hal Newhouser HOF 1992 17 1939
16 Tom Seaver HOF 1992 20 1967
17 Fergie Jenkins HOF 1991 19 1965
18 Gaylord Perry HOF 1991 22 1962
19 Jim Palmer HOF 1990 19 1965
20 Catfish Hunter HOF 1987 15 1965

[numbers]

That seems insane.

[Norah]

I absolutely adore what Dan Lebatard did. I hope someone has the balls to do it again next year... and his ballot was totally sound in comparison with any of the jerkoffs that didnt include Maddux.

I think everyone who likes baseball loves what he did. His ballot was 100% defensible. But no, let's make sure he doesn't get to vote so we can continue giving votes to the 16 guys who didn't vote for Maddux or the guy who voted for Jacque Jones or the guy who's openly admitted he want vote for anyone and is going to hand in a blank ballot to spite other writers.

The BBWAA is the worst.

His ballot ended up being legit, but the last thing I want is Hall of Fame voting going to deadspin readers.

I would take that over grumpy old retired writers who don't care to do research and use their ballots to try to make some kind of point.

Yeah. because the public voting for the all star rosters works perfectly.

[philpritchard]

I absolutely adore what Dan Lebatard did. I hope someone has the balls to do it again next year... and his ballot was totally sound in comparison with any of the jerkoffs that didnt include Maddux.

I think everyone who likes baseball loves what he did. His ballot was 100% defensible. But no, let's make sure he doesn't get to vote so we can continue giving votes to the 16 guys who didn't vote for Maddux or the guy who voted for Jacque Jones or the guy who's openly admitted he want vote for anyone and is going to hand in a blank ballot to spite other writers.

The BBWAA is the worst.

His ballot ended up being legit, but the last thing I want is Hall of Fame voting going to deadspin readers.

I would take that over grumpy old retired writers who don't care to do research and use their ballots to try to make some kind of point.

Yeah. because the public voting for the all star rosters works perfectly.

It was one ballot and it worked out well... I'm certainly not advocating for the general public to have votes, but there has to be a better system than what's in place now. The ballot Lebatard submitted was as well thought out as anyone else's.

[philpritchard]

Did I hear this right? Maddux and Glavine are the first starting pitchers that debuted after 1972 to be inducted?

That's crazy, but it's not like there are a ton of great candidates from that time who have been left off. I've already said I think Schilling and Mussina should be in, and so should Clemens. Next year Pedro, Johnson and Smoltz join the ballot. It's weird that there would be a long stretch where none go in and that would be followed by a stretch of 2-3 years where there are so many great candidates, including some of the best pitchers of all time.

[MadTIGERmaN]

and for the record, no one is getting screwed worse than Tim Raines...

Yeah, at this rate he's not going to get in and he absolutely should. If he didn't do the majority of his damage in Montreal he would probably have been first ballot.

That, and he was always overshadowed by Rickey Henderson and Vince Coleman (for a couple years anyway.)

he's the second best leadoff hitter of all time to Henderson...

4th... Ichiro and Molitor are tied for 2nd IMO

yeah Rains walked more, and stole more giving him a OBP 16 points higher than Molitor and 24 over Ichiro... but he cant hit with those two, dont even try to argue it, Ichiro already has more hits than Rains in 500 less games. Molitor with around 180 more games (so basically one season) has 700 more hits.

[@SkitchP]

Trammell should have been in years ago, he might be one of the more underrated players of the modern era. Rice never should have gotten in, it was like they were just dying to put someone in that year that didnt have the taint of steroids whether they belonged or not.

Agreed 100%, although Whitaker may be more deserving than trammell.

Are you like 4 Hopslams in or something?

Go compare them on baseball reference, Whitaker had almost a 5 career WAR advantage in about the same number of games- both of them above Alomar, Sandberg and Larkin. Whitaker also had a higher OPS+ than Alomar Sandberg, Larkin AND Trammell.

compared to trammell
He also had more HR, RBI, Walk, OBP, Slugging. Fewer steals and lower Batting Average.

Both are rated 11th best at their position ever using baseball reference. Of the top 12 at 2nd base, all but Grich and Whitaker are in the HOF (both should be)'

at SS, The Top 17 are in with the exception of a guy named Bill Dahlin who played in the 1800's, Trammell and Jeter.

All the hand wringing about Morris, meanwhile trammell and whitaker should basically be no brainers.

[philpritchard]

yeah Rains walked more, and stole more giving him a OBP 16 points higher than Molitor and 24 over Ichiro... but he cant hit with those two, dont even try to argue it, Ichiro already has more hits than Rains in 500 less games. Molitor with around 180 more games (so basically one season) has 700 more hits.

So you would take the guy who gets more hits over the better baserunner who gets on base more often as your leadoff hitter?

[MadTIGERmaN]

yeah Rains walked more, and stole more giving him a OBP 16 points higher than Molitor and 24 over Ichiro... but he cant hit with those two, dont even try to argue it, Ichiro already has more hits than Rains in 500 less games. Molitor with around 180 more games (so basically one season) has 700 more hits.

So you would take the guy who gets more hits over the better baserunner who gets on base more often as your leadoff hitter?

Yeah, and its not like Molitor and Ichiro are bad baserunners?
If the other teams got a shut down closer coming in, in the 9th, do you want one of the greatest hitters of all time up at bat to start a rally? or a guy who knows how to draw a walk? Mariano Rivera does not walk people... Im sending the guy up with the nickname IGNITOR to start the rally.

[Coach]

Regarding Raines, I think he should get in.

Peter Abraham, the Red Sox beat writer at the Boston Globe (and former Yankees beat writer) said that he thinks Raines was the 2nd best lead-off hitter of all-time with R. Henderson being no. 1.

[philpritchard]

yeah Rains walked more, and stole more giving him a OBP 16 points higher than Molitor and 24 over Ichiro... but he cant hit with those two, dont even try to argue it, Ichiro already has more hits than Rains in 500 less games. Molitor with around 180 more games (so basically one season) has 700 more hits.

So you would take the guy who gets more hits over the better baserunner who gets on base more often as your leadoff hitter?

Yeah, and its not like Molitor and Ichiro are bad baserunners?
If the other teams got a shut down closer coming in, in the 9th, do you want one of the greatest hitters of all time up at bat to start a rally? or a guy who knows how to draw a walk? Mariano Rivera does not walk people... Im sending the guy up with the nickname IGNITOR to start the rally.

Well I clearly never said they were bad baserunners, but they don't compare to Raines.

For starters, my biggest concern in a leadoff hitter is not about the times he may lead off the ninth inning against the Yankees when my team is trailing by three runs or less. I would be more concerned about the other 598 plate appearances that will come up over the course of the season. However, if it were my main concern, I would want to send up a batter who gives me the best chance of getting on base. That tends to be how rallies start.

[MadTIGERmaN]

In 180 more games, Molitor has Raines beat in
Hits, Doubles, Triples, Homers, RBI, RUNS, Average, slugging, onbase+slugging, total bases by 1000+
Raines has, SB, OBP, and grounded into fewer double plays?

theyre actually pretty close in a lot of those categories, and very similar players, Raines isnt going to hit 3rd for the 93 Blue Jays team.

[philpritchard]

In 180 more games, Molitor has Raines beat in
Hits, Doubles, Triples, Homers, RBI, RUNS, Average, slugging, onbase+slugging, total bases by 1000+
Raines has, SB, OBP, and grounded into fewer double plays?

theyre actually pretty close in a lot of those categories, and very similar players, Raines isnt going to hit 3rd for the 93 Blue Jays team.

You're right, he wouldn't have. That's because, coming back to the original point of the discussion, he would have hit leadoff.