Feminism

[mookie]

I feel like my gif was criminally underappreciated.now I feel oppressed.

It was like being told to stand up straight and still while a little girl off to the side was getting away with dancing to the beat of her own drum?

Exactly. The forced subjugation of man (who is clearly out of control and hopelessly sexually deviant) by a dominating matriarch. Modern life in just a few frames.

It was a good gif. Men really need to be saved from themselves and the slutty women.

[Thejambi]

The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

Absolutely.

I like the coin analogy quite a bit. I do believe woman have taken a coin or two back, especially looking back at 60's/70's/80's. Having said that I don't think all of those coins have been given without a still existing reluctance. The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is. For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I was just trying (and failing) to say that it's my belief that "choice" in our society is often an illusion. So not all choices are good / helpful just because they are freely chosen, but not only that, somewhere there is a system which forces our "choices" into particular boxes. So the housewife may criticise what they call "choice feminism" because, as someone who is in poverty (for example), her lack of social manoeuvrability means that choice is not a luxury she has. (Ever noticed that a lot of people advocating "choice feminism" and "sexual freedom" are rich celebrities?) Someone will always be there to say that thinking systemically is pointless complication of things, but it's not that complicated really. Yes, the ideal world would be one in which everyone would be free to choose. But to achieve that, the scales need to be tipped the other way in terms of power. What I'm saying takes feminism away from being just about individual responsibility, and should also (in theory) stop us men thinking we're all guilty and women hate us for everything. Because honestly, if there is a systemic problem, there is no need for every individual in that system to feel guilty about it, just to be aware, and make it a priority to change the way they interact with the world as an individual. The same thing is true about race, or disability, or sexuality, or anything. I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

I don't argue with the fact that sometimes individuals are born/raised/stuck with situations where they are confined to certain ways of life. People born into better situations usually have more choice. Perhaps I should say their windows of opportunity and avenues of choice are bigger and open longer.

I know a handful of true woman's rights advocates that have committed years to the issue and they have never made me feel personally guilty for being a man. If anything they have made me feel better about myself as a male and appreciate woman more. I have always been respectful of woman and never once thought of myself as superior just because I was a man. I think that is a niche group of Feminists at this point that try to use guilt tactics and perhaps miss the point of what Feminism is. Just like any movement I think it was more fierce in its uprisings to really get going.

I agree that a systemic change needs to happen but it starts with individual responsibility. It goes beyond just you and me. It is a generational problem/solution. You are right man isn't born thinking he is superior to woman, it is created by parenting and society. The more individuals that ahead to the belief and teach/practice it the more expedited the process will be.

I'm with you that I don't feel guilty for being a white male. Nor should I. I don't live as a sexist or a racist.

[harmless]

The goal of Feminism is for there not to be a need for Feminism.

I'm going to try to catch up with this thread and contribute.

I'd say that's the goal for all types of socially directed organizations that form

Absolutely.

I like the coin analogy quite a bit. I do believe woman have taken a coin or two back, especially looking back at 60's/70's/80's. Having said that I don't think all of those coins have been given without a still existing reluctance. The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is. For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I was just trying (and failing) to say that it's my belief that "choice" in our society is often an illusion. So not all choices are good / helpful just because they are freely chosen, but not only that, somewhere there is a system which forces our "choices" into particular boxes. So the housewife may criticise what they call "choice feminism" because, as someone who is in poverty (for example), her lack of social manoeuvrability means that choice is not a luxury she has. (Ever noticed that a lot of people advocating "choice feminism" and "sexual freedom" are rich celebrities?) Someone will always be there to say that thinking systemically is pointless complication of things, but it's not that complicated really. Yes, the ideal world would be one in which everyone would be free to choose. But to achieve that, the scales need to be tipped the other way in terms of power. What I'm saying takes feminism away from being just about individual responsibility, and should also (in theory) stop us men thinking we're all guilty and women hate us for everything. Because honestly, if there is a systemic problem, there is no need for every individual in that system to feel guilty about it, just to be aware, and make it a priority to change the way they interact with the world as an individual. The same thing is true about race, or disability, or sexuality, or anything. I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

I don't argue with the fact that sometimes individuals are born/raised/stuck with situations where they are confined to certain ways of life. People born into better situations usually have more choice. Perhaps I should say their windows of opportunity and avenues of choice are bigger and open longer.

I know a handful of true woman's rights advocates that have committed years to the issue and they have never made me feel personally guilty for being a man. If anything they have made me feel better about myself as a male and appreciate woman more. I have always been respectful of woman and never once thought of myself as superior just because I was a man. I think that is a niche group of Feminists at this point that try to use guilt tactics and perhaps miss the point of what Feminism is. Just like any movement I think it was more fierce in its uprisings to really get going.

I agree that a systemic change needs to happen but it starts with individual responsibility. It goes beyond just you and me. It is a generational problem/solution. You are right man isn't born thinking he is superior to woman, it is created by parenting and society. The more individuals that ahead to the belief and teach/practice it the more expedited the process will be.

I'm with you that I don't feel guilty for being a white male. Nor should I. I don't live as a sexist or a racist.

We don't live as racists and sexists, and yet, small caveat: we do live with the privilege (I know, yawn, but the word matters) that a sexist and racist society has afforded us, so it is possible to overstep boundaries without knowing we have. Of course this is true wherever we have privilege and things we take for granted as opposed to others.

[Kaius]

Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

[broken iris]

I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

Of course you should not feel guilty about that because they are either: (a) fucking with you or (b) so completely ignorant of human cultural, racial, and political history that their opinion is rubbish.

[harmless]

I don't feel guilty about being a white male, but neither do I feel personally guilty when a black person reminds me that imperialism is white people's fault (and continues to this day).

Of course you should not feel guilty about that because they are either: (a) fucking with you or (b) so completely ignorant of human cultural, racial, and political history that their opinion is rubbish.

'Imperialism is white people's fault' was obviously a simplification, but I have no idea what could possibly be your issue with the statement. On that, we'll just agree to disagree.

[harmless]

(You're also assuming that all of the people of colour I've read and heard from on the subject of imperialism are equally ignorant, which is... odd.)

[BurtReynolds]

Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

[harmless]

Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

Like Pearl Jam.

[BurtReynolds]

Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

Like Pearl Jam.

There is no reason to hurl insults!

[harmless]

Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

Like Pearl Jam.

There is no reason to hurl insults!

There is always a reason to hurl insults.

[Kaius]

Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

With most people I tend to peak around #3 or #4 before my shtick gets old and I fade into obscurity.

Like Pearl Jam.

[Norah]

Brilliant Burt
You're rapidly moving up my favorite poster rankings

You'd have hated him when he had that awful avatar on the old board.

[Kaius]

I missed the old board

[malice]

I missed the old board

the new board missed the old board too

[broken iris]

.... The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is.

"any scientist who couldn't explain to an eight-year-old what he was doing was a charlatan" - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

If you could clearly and concisely explain it me, it would be /thread, or maybe just point me to an example of a more just/feminine society.

For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I totally agree with this, and that is my perception of how Feminism/Democracy/Equality/Capitalism/Liberty could all blend in the end. It's not necessarily the explicit dismantling of the patriarchal culture which has driven human social evolution since the first monkeys banged, but the elimination of the biased and discriminatory factors that exclude people from it. Lament tweeted an interesting article about the history of the dark concept of "white" people as a process for exclusion of undesirables from power and that slow inclusion of other... nationalities, I guess (there are tons of logical flaws in the article), like the Irish and Italians who previously were not considered "white", to balance power in face of a growing "colored" population. Which makes me think; is the patriarchy still a oppressor if all interested parties (white, black, christian, muslim, male, female, LBGT, etc) can participate equally and without prejudice?

[harmless]

.... The overall problem is neither gender is fully committed to the issue or understands what the real issue is.

"any scientist who couldn't explain to an eight-year-old what he was doing was a charlatan" - Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

If you could clearly and concisely explain it me, it would be /thread, or maybe just point me to an example of a more just/feminine society.

For every strong willed and capable woman I know, I know one that is perfectly fine with a submissive life in a submissive role because she feels that what she is supposed to be/do. For every level headed and non-biased male I know I know a macho "bro" that believes his woman should be in the kitchen making sandwiches and pumping out kids. What I've learned is it's all about choice and what the response is to that choice. If a woman chooses to stay at home and play the more 1960's role and is happy with it that should be just as acceptable as a woman running a fortune 500 company. Either way it should be her choice to live that lifestyle and not have it be what is expected of her based on gender. The same should be said about men.

I totally agree with this, and that is my perception of how Feminism/Democracy/Equality/Capitalism/Liberty could all blend in the end. It's not necessarily the explicit dismantling of the patriarchal culture which has driven human social evolution since the first monkeys banged, but the elimination of the biased and discriminatory factors that exclude people from it.

But those are inherently built into this patriarchal culture; they always have been, and always will be. You seem to think it's a choice between putting all women in charge, and all men in charge (in any case, I'm not sure why you'd feel threatened by the former); the fact is, though, that "the patriarchy" and "paternalism" represent a whole host of social values and ideals as well that repeatedly exclude minority groups, most notably but not only women. For me this is all tied with a hatred of new Capitalism and the belief that it's always going to be detrimental to society, but I see we are totally different in that aspect. The system needs a fundamental rethink; as it is, it has the inevitable exclusion of minority groups built into it. We can't just make those better. That they exist is the issue.

[broken iris]

You seem to think it's a choice between putting all women in charge, and all men in charge (in any case, I'm not sure why you'd feel threatened by the former);

Perhaps the reason you are not sure why would I feel threatened by that is because I would not feel threatened by that. I do not, would not, and have not implied such a thing. I have suggested that I don't think the just solution to a male dominated society that oppresses women is a female dominated society that oppresses men. Now, I am in no way implying I believe that fictional society is the goal of Feminism. I. do. not. think. that. But, I am not clear on the alternatives if everything is inherently gendered (as you stated).

The system needs a fundamental rethink; as it is, it has the inevitable exclusion of minority groups built into it. We can't just make those better. That they exist is the issue.

Again, don't hide behind the not-so-subtle suggestion that me questioning all this makes me a bigot, help me conceptualize the alternative. Human beings are not identical automatons. There will always be some who are more sexually appealing. Some who are smarter. Some who are stronger. Some who have natural abilities that are more desired by society. And there will always be some grouping of humans that constitutes a minority cross-section of the population. Even in rough terms, what does a system where the impacts of all of this are somehow negated look like? Is there something on Earth that's even close I use a starting point?

[harmless]

I never called you a bigot, or even insinuated you were one. If I had an alternative, I'd be a politician; I'm not obligated to design an alternative, and that I can't doesn't mean there isn't one.

[harmless]

The weirdest thing about the U.S. is that as a collective culture, it seems to think Consumerist Capitalism and Patriarchy / Paternalism is the only form of leadership available to us. That's not a critique of your opinion, just an observation of what I see on a wider level. But the way I'm using the term, 'patriarchy' is a set of biases, values and assumptions that I think are harmful; it's not necessarily the governance pattern of which 'Matriarchy' is the opposite.