Match BN: Foldback vs. Off He Goes

[epilogue]

It's a story about what it's like when friends fracture and how "the surrounding bullshit" affects perceptions on both sides. It's a universal theme, and hardly narcissistic in this case. At least, to me.

But just a few posts earlier you suggested it was supposed to be read with the extraordinary circumstances he was going through (fame, Ticketmaster) in mind. That takes it out of the universal realm, does it not?

Not at all. Because overcoming problems is universal. The size or uniqueness of the problem is irrelevant.

[Lament]

I see what you're saying, but the way you're classifying this song as being narcissistic would apply to a vast amount of songs. Maybe I'm just automatically assigning a negative connotation to the term when there shouldn't be one.

There are a lot of songs I genuinely love that have absurdly narcissistic moments in them. There are times when it's appropriate and works very well. I'm with stip in that I think the narcissism in this song is over-the-top and a bit too much for me to take, but the presence of narcissism in itself isn't something that I consider to be a necessarily bad thing. It's just the way in which it's done here. It's too much of the main point of the song to me.

[Iholdthepain]

Also, it's tricky in that he's trying to write about himself (apparently) from the point of view of an old friend. Ed's exploring a possible version of himself based on imagined (empathetic?) thoughts of feelings. It isn't how he sees himself, but how he imagines someone else might see him. And some of it is pretty grim. So, yeah, I'm with Strat on this.

Sorry, 3rd person. This is why it's a great song, regardless of the narcissism.

[Lament]

Not at all. Because overcoming problems is universal. The size or uniqueness of the problem is irrelevant.

But he's not overcoming problems here. He's not even fighting against them anymore. He's just bummed our and burdened. That's the difference between Off He Goes and Vitalogy, and that's why the self-centered stuff in this song bothers me in a way that it doesn't on Vitalogy; It's the main point of this song (to my ears) as opposed to being a result of the main point (as it seems to be on Vitalogy, once again, to my ears).

[Kaius]

I love a good old fashioned gentlemans debate

[digster]

I feel like this is making my head spin a bit.

The only way the song could be considered narcissistic is viewed through the prism of Eddie as a person and what he was dealing with at the time he wrote it (i.e., he's the friend).

But if you view it through Eddie as a person and what he was dealing with at the time he wrote it, isn't he correct in saying the problems he's dealing with are different than more commonplace concerns? Most people don't have other people following you everywhere you go; most people don't have stalkers trying to drive cars into your living room.

[Lament]

I guess I just don't see how there's anything in the song that shows Ed having an excessive or erotic interest in himself or his personal appearance. It's a story about what it's like when friends fracture and how "the surrounding bullshit" affects perceptions on both sides. It's a universal theme, and hardly narcissistic in this case. At least, to me.

Picking and choosing definitions is fun. It can also mean "Having an undue fascination with oneself," which this song absolutely oozes to me.

What's the difference between having an excessive interest in oneself and having an undue fascination with oneself?

So you didn't specifically pick the one that referenced having an erotic interest in oneself even though that has never been suggested just because it changed the aim of the accusation of narcissism?

[BurtReynolds]

I don't consider self reflection to be narcissism. I'm not sure if everyone is using the same definition of narcissism, but this song doesn't fit any of them IMO. Its never occurred to me.

[Lament]

I don't think I'm supposed to assume its a glorious ode to himself. He saved that for Given to Fly.

Off He Goes is the Holy Week that precedes his Easter Sunday rising on Given to Fly. Mankind is the Holy Thursday feast.

[Lament]

I don't consider self reflection to be narcissism. I'm not sure if everyone is using the same definition of narcissism, but this song doesn't fit any of them IMO. Its never occurred to me.

Self-reflection is usually narcissistic to some extent. Sometimes it's over the top though, and Off He Goes is one of those instances to me.

[BurtReynolds]

I don't think I'm supposed to assume its a glorious ode to himself. He saved that for Given to Fly.

Off He Goes is the Holy Week that precedes his Easter Sunday rising on Given to Fly. Mankind is the Holy Thursday feast.

Ed floated back down 'cause Ed wanted to share
Ed's key to the locks on the chains Ed saw everywhere
But first Ed was stripped and then Ed was stabbed
By faceless men, well, fuckers
Ed still stands

[Jorge]

"I wonder about his insides,
it's like his thoughts are too big for his size"

is a good couplet. It has a pleasing cadence, it is evocative, it is wistful and fittingly folksy. Is there some degree of self-aggrandizement in the sentiment? Sure, and we know this because Ed's discussed it meta-contextually; there's nothing inherently wrong with the line itself. And anyway, what is confessional folk/rock/pop songwriting if not self-aggrandizing?

Finally, is it worth all this debate? Probably not, when we could be discussing this tasty piece of music:

[Iholdthepain]

I don't think I'm supposed to assume its a glorious ode to himself. He saved that for Given to Fly.

Off He Goes is the Holy Week that precedes his Easter Sunday rising on Given to Fly. Mankind is the Holy Thursday feast.

So in Satan's Bed, is Ed a fallen angel? I do believe he finally succumbed to the succubus, and sucked Satan's dick.

[Iholdthepain]

I don't consider self reflection to be narcissism. I'm not sure if everyone is using the same definition of narcissism, but this song doesn't fit any of them IMO. Its never occurred to me.

Self-reflection is usually narcissistic to some extent. Sometimes it's over the top though, and Off He Goes is one of those instances to me.

Fine, be that way!

[stip]

Part of the problem for me is that I thought it was about Eddie from day 1 and so was turned off right away.

And I think there is lots more going on in vitalogy than writing about fame. Even if there wasn't, part of the genius of that record is its ability to also make something intensely personal about the listener as well. The I's in vitalogy hit the listener as we's

Speaking from my experience, I know my first thought on this was definitely not "he's singing from the POV of a friend of his about himself in the third person." That's a very convoluted first impression to get.

I'm not really sure there's much difference between what's happening in Off He Goes vs. Vitalogy. Is it possible you love the latter and are indifferent to the former, which enlarges the narcissism for you in Off He Goes and buries it for you with Vitalogy? I know that happens with me and I would suggest with everyone. If we love a song and there are faults, we'll learn to like them or they don't bother us, and vice versa with a song we're not fond of.

Of course that's very possible, but I do like the music in off he goes The story is what turned me off to the song in the first place.

[Lament]

Ed floated back down 'cause Ed wanted to share
Ed's key to the locks on the chains Ed saw everywhere
But first Ed was stripped and then Ed was stabbed
By faceless men, well, fuckers
Ed still stands

BUT ED STILL GIVES HIS LOVE
ED JUST GIVES IT AWAY
AND THE LOVE ED RECEIVES
IS THE LOVE THAT IS SAV(ED)...

So in Satan's Bed, is Ed a fallen angel? I do believe he finally succumbed to the succubus, and sucked Satan's dick.

Satan's Bed is about Lent. It's the 40 days Ed spent in the desert, wherein he was tempted by Lucifer.

[stip]

Not at all. Because overcoming problems is universal. The size or uniqueness of the problem is irrelevant.

But he's not overcoming problems here. He's not even fighting against them anymore. He's just bummed our and burdened. That's the difference between Off He Goes and Vitalogy, and that's why the self-centered stuff in this song bothers me in a way that it doesn't on Vitalogy; It's the main point of this song (to my ears) as opposed to being a result of the main point (as it seems to be on Vitalogy, once again, to my ears).

The above keys into one of the problems for me. It's precisely why I love given to fly despite the messiah complex that is literally what the song is about

[BurtReynolds]

Ed floated back down 'cause Ed wanted to share
Ed's key to the locks on the chains Ed saw everywhere
But first Ed was stripped and then Ed was stabbed
By faceless men, well, fuckers
Ed still stands

BUT ED STILL GIVES HIS LOVE
ED JUST GIVES IT AWAY
AND THE LOVE ED RECEIVES
IS THE LOVE THAT IS SAV(ED)...

So in Satan's Bed, is Ed a fallen angel? I do believe he finally succumbed to the succubus, and sucked Satan's dick.

Satan's Bed is about Lent. It's the 40 days Ed spent in the desert, wherein he was tempted by Lucifer.

I guess I can relate to your Off He Goes problem, because ever since I decided Given to Fly was about Ed, I can't not hear it.

The only difference is it makes it a much better song

[Lament]

I guess I can relate to your Off He Goes problem, because ever since I decided Given to Fly was about Ed, I can't not hear it.

The only difference is it makes it a much better song

Realizing GTF was about how even though we didn't appreciate him, he would still grace our pathetic existence with his glories definitely took this song to the next level for me. I just wish on the cover of the single they had put a Cubs hat on the statue and a bottle of wine in its hand so I would've realized it sooner.

[McParadigm]

Any time you find yourself agreeing with stip, you know you took a wrong turn somewhere.

Off He Goes is reflective self-criticism. He turns himself into a caricature, and imbues the unnamed observer with more insight and awareness than he allows himself. The friend is the one who can see clearly...he's just a silhouette of self importance and reservation.

Not only that, but you're misreading key lines. "It's like his thoughts are too big for his size," for example, is not about heavy wisdom but about thinking you are capable of knowing and doing more than others...more than an individual ever could do. It's a statement about arrogance, put in the most gently shaded and polite way a friend would ever say it...and that is what is appropriate for the song.