HBO Television Show: True Detective

[@SkitchP]

But, yes, I agree that Marty and Rust, on the balance, are very engaging characters, and well made. It only makes it that much more frustrating that some of the other characters aren't given the same care. Because dude is clearly capable of giving it to us.

See, this is where our views on the show differ pretty dramatically. This was a show about Marty and Rust, and the other characters to me existed purely as a means to develop the 2 leads. And i think that difference in view is probably the main point between those who view the show as being misogynist, and those that don't. To me, the women had to be weak characters, as those are the type women the flawed detectives would have in their lives. Portraying strong women in this show would not have made the same points regarding Marty and Rust that having the women (and ultimately all the side characters) as disposable... because to Marty and especially Rust, other people were disposable, police work is what mattered.

[epilogue]

But, yes, I agree that Marty and Rust, on the balance, are very engaging characters, and well made. It only makes it that much more frustrating that some of the other characters aren't given the same care. Because dude is clearly capable of giving it to us.

See, this is where our views on the show differ pretty dramatically. This was a show about Marty and Rust, and the other characters to me existed purely as a means to develop the 2 leads. And i think that difference in view is probably the main point between those who view the show as being misogynist, and those that don't. To me, the women had to be weak characters, as those are the type women the flawed detectives would have in their lives. Portraying strong women in this show would not have made the same points regarding Marty and Rust that having the women (and ultimately all the side characters) as disposable... because to Marty and especially Rust, other people were disposable, police work is what mattered.

Taking any potential misogyny out of the equation -- there are shows out there that develop their supporting characters better than TD did. That's all I'm saying. The show is only about 2 people, so only 2 people need to be developed is a weak argument and a crutch for bad writing. And again, I'm not talking about lack of a strong women. I'm talking about the lack of a fully realized character outside of the two leads. So many other characters -- not just the women -- are little more than cardboard cutouts, or mechanisms to serve the plot. I would have liked more interesting supporting characters, that's all.

[@SkitchP]

But, yes, I agree that Marty and Rust, on the balance, are very engaging characters, and well made. It only makes it that much more frustrating that some of the other characters aren't given the same care. Because dude is clearly capable of giving it to us.

See, this is where our views on the show differ pretty dramatically. This was a show about Marty and Rust, and the other characters to me existed purely as a means to develop the 2 leads. And i think that difference in view is probably the main point between those who view the show as being misogynist, and those that don't. To me, the women had to be weak characters, as those are the type women the flawed detectives would have in their lives. Portraying strong women in this show would not have made the same points regarding Marty and Rust that having the women (and ultimately all the side characters) as disposable... because to Marty and especially Rust, other people were disposable, police work is what mattered.

Taking any potential misogyny out of the equation -- there are shows out there that develop their supporting characters better than TD did. That's all I'm saying. The show is only about 2 people, so only 2 people need to be developed is a weak argument and a crutch for bad writing. And again, I'm not talking about lack of a strong women. I'm talking about the lack of a fully realized character outside of the two leads. So many other characters -- not just the women -- are little more than cardboard cutouts, or mechanisms to serve the plot. I would have liked more interesting supporting characters, that's all.

I know you wern't talking about the women specifically. But this was an 8 episode run, with a relatively convoluted story. There simply wouldn't have been time to tell every thing they wanted to about Marty and Rust, and develop anyone else. If the show ran another season with the same cast, I agree they would have had to develop everyone else more. But in this tight, short run, I enjoyed the fact that it basically played out like a 2 man show, with the other people basically being nothing but a vessel to develop the leads.

[Malloy]

i'm not sure True Detective is coherent enough to have a meaning.

In order to be a true detective (as with any true writer, imo), one must investigate & accept (and work to defeat) the deeper crimes within themselves. Only then can they survive & live life to the fullest.

Rust claimed to know this about himself, but he still turned his back on that "light" he failed to see until the end. While Rust had interesting things to say, the more complicated one was Marty. His breakdown in the hospital mirrors Dante's absolution at the banks of heaven. In the end, I see both men being absolved.

That's True Detective to me.

totally agreed regarding marty. he is a more interesting one.

and w/r/t your take on the show, the final epsidoe certainly backs it up.

[Malloy]

I like how people try to condescend towards the show by claiming that Rust is a paper things character. People are just trying to discredit what is obviously true about the show. The characters are fantastic. Honestly, I hated Rust's take on the "eternal recurrence", but otherwise his insights were the best part of the show. Also, Marty's parable is probably more evocative than Rust's, so don't be so quick to throw Marty out as a disposable character. That shit was real, whether you like him or not.

Further, I watch some shows for philosophical entertainment, some for their cinematic content, and some for both. For me, True Detective was a totally cerebral experience, I enjoyed the philosophical elements, but even more I enjoyed the tone/pacing/ cinematography. When Malloy says, "what is the shows meaning, and how does it mean what it means?", I think he effectively says nothing. I don't think TD has some ultimate message, and the meaning it does have, based in character development is readily apparent. I'm pretty sure this is not the examination of a genre either. The genre is simply explored, and used as a forum to tell the characters stories… If this is a meta-text on the genre, it fails. But, it isn't.

that was me! really though, i don't think critique is the same as condescension. if i was being condescending, it was when i pointed out the limitations of the critical discourse via character worship. i still think it's a valid criticism, but it could have been better delivered.

as for discrediting the show: that's not my goal. if anything, i'm taking your and the majority of others' claims totally seriously and thinking about how the characters are great. my measuring stick for art works is always other artworks. so when i say rust is paper thin, i'm thinking of what chandler, hammett, jim thompson & co. already did. the new wrinkle in True Detective is rust's philosophical soliloquies. my question is is it high gloss or is it crucial to the show's meaning. it has nothing to do with what i loved, hated, agreed with or objected to. i want to know the relevance of the shows parts to its meaning. and i think the meaning of show is unrelated to how i felt about True Detective.

you claim that my question, "what does the show mean and how does it mean what it means," says "nothing." but then you answer my question: you say the show doesn't have a meaning. so, it seems my question was cogent enough to merit a response. that it says something. maybe you meant that my question was irrelevant or misguided?

[Mecca]

But, yes, I agree that Marty and Rust, on the balance, are very engaging characters, and well made. It only makes it that much more frustrating that some of the other characters aren't given the same care. Because dude is clearly capable of giving it to us.

See, this is where our views on the show differ pretty dramatically. This was a show about Marty and Rust, and the other characters to me existed purely as a means to develop the 2 leads. And i think that difference in view is probably the main point between those who view the show as being misogynist, and those that don't. To me, the women had to be weak characters, as those are the type women the flawed detectives would have in their lives. Portraying strong women in this show would not have made the same points regarding Marty and Rust that having the women (and ultimately all the side characters) as disposable... because to Marty and especially Rust, other people were disposable, police work is what mattered.

Taking any potential misogyny out of the equation -- there are shows out there that develop their supporting characters better than TD did. That's all I'm saying. The show is only about 2 people, so only 2 people need to be developed is a weak argument and a crutch for bad writing. And again, I'm not talking about lack of a strong women. I'm talking about the lack of a fully realized character outside of the two leads. So many other characters -- not just the women -- are little more than cardboard cutouts, or mechanisms to serve the plot. I would have liked more interesting supporting characters, that's all.

I know you wern't talking about the women specifically. But this was an 8 episode run, with a relatively convoluted story. There simply wouldn't have been time to tell every thing they wanted to about Marty and Rust, and develop anyone else. If the show ran another season with the same cast, I agree they would have had to develop everyone else more. But in this tight, short run, I enjoyed the fact that it basically played out like a 2 man show, with the other people basically being nothing but a vessel to develop the leads.

I agree, totally. I think having only 8 episodes limits development to only the important ones.

[Norah]

About to pack a bowl and watch episode 1.

[digster]

Taking any potential misogyny out of the equation -- there are shows out there that develop their supporting characters better than TD did. That's all I'm saying. The show is only about 2 people, so only 2 people need to be developed is a weak argument and a crutch for bad writing. And again, I'm not talking about lack of a strong women. I'm talking about the lack of a fully realized character outside of the two leads. So many other characters -- not just the women -- are little more than cardboard cutouts, or mechanisms to serve the plot. I would have liked more interesting supporting characters, that's all.

This is true, but they're mostly ensemble pieces. I think back to something like The X-Files; it was years before they even came close to having a supporting character with a comparable depth and complexity to the two leads, but I would never say that that show skimped on characterization, because it was clear that it was about Mulder and Scully as opposed to the other characters, and they obviously put time, care and specificity into how deeply and complexly those two lead characters were drawn. I feel like True Detective was working in a similar space.

[Norah]

Alright I'm on board.

[Iholdthepain]

About to pack a bowl and watch episode 1.

[Norah]

Watched the first three episodes. I should really go to bed...

[DeLima]

The end of #3 is so great huh

[Norah]

The end of #3 is so great huh

I wanted to watch another one so bad, but it was nearly 4am.

[Norah]

Also, in episode 2 I knew those tits were coming but they still stopped me dead in my tracks.

[Norah]

The end of episode 4 was just incredible.

[Dev]

The end of episode 4 was just incredible.

first half of episode 5 is even better

[Norah]

The end of episode 4 was just incredible.

first half of episode 5 is even better

oh boy

[Dev]

The end of episode 4 was just incredible.

first half of episode 5 is even better

oh boy

brace yourself

[Norah]

I can't believe I only have 2 episodes to go. I want more!

[Norah]

i loved how that last scene in the projects was shot

single shot from inside the stash house until the backseat of the squad car, just fucking beautiful