Redskins name controversy

[philpritchard]

So are you offended for the native americans who are not offended?

I'm glad to hear you've polled the Native American's to determine whether or not they're offended by the name.

[darth_vedder]

I'm not going to apologize for having an opinion. There's enough to be said for both sides of this matter, that's apparent.

You're an asshole, though. That I'm pretty sure of.

If you say so pal. I 100% disagree with you about this being a human rights issue, but I'm not gonna call you names because I don't know you at all to say whether you are an asshole or not. Likewise, you don't know me whatsoever, so way to go an make assumptions.

This topic is such a lightening rod now, I just hope they do change the name. Till then, I have no problem saying Redskins when discussing the football team, or wearing my Redskins t-shirts during football season. Still, this "issue" ain't gonna die, ever, so for that, just change the damn name already. I guess if anything, this argument now has put me on the change the name team, but for different reasons.

It just SUCKS to be a Redskins fan...the team pretty much stinks every year, and we can't even talk about the team, b/c the only thing people want to talk about is the name. Maybe they should just go back to the USFL DC team name, "The Federals". When they do change the name, I just hope they keep the colors. I'm a big fan of the burgundy and gold look.

[darth_vedder]

So are you offended for the native americans who are not offended?

I'm glad to hear you've polled the Native American's to determine whether or not they're offended by the name.

Obviously you haven't read my post...I've sited numerous sources where many are not offended. Go ahead, read through my post here...I have quite a few links. Also, when did I say I have done any such polling?

[MadTIGERmaN]

So are you offended for the native americans who are not offended?

I'm glad to hear you've polled the Native American's to determine whether or not they're offended by the name.

Obviously you haven't read my post...I've sited numerous sources where many are not offended. Go ahead, read through my post here...I have quite a few links. Also, when did I say I have done any such polling?

ummm, suicide rates are highest in the country on Native American reservations especially amongst teens, and most experts believe the negative stereotype that is displayed in characters created by sports teams, and hollywood, who still has white boys dressing up and playing Indians trying to make scary face (yes Johnny Depp thats you) is one of the main factors leading to this epidemic.

and, most natives do not support the name
most vocal ones are strongly against the name, and, all negative depictions of Native peoples in such manner
a larger percentage of natives, dont care, and in most cases, they dont care because they have REAL issues theyre facing on a daily basis, like, the high suicide rates amongst teens, lack of jobs, some of the poorest living conditions, and poorest counties in the U.S. are Native reservations.

and the reason youre not hearing the voices of the ones who support it? is because theyre that hard to find

seriously the argument for keeping the name / not changing the name, borders on uneducated and pure racism.
I know of one Native whos been trying to end these names/mascots since the 60s because of direct abuse he faced at his school. They have been protesting the Washington football team name nationally since the 1988 super bowl.

[darth_vedder]

This is why I just want this to end. If you are not offended, you're labeled as a racist and an uneducated backwards asshole. The pro-change side isn't even hearing the other side. It seems to me, y'al just say change it and if you don't agree you're a bad person.

re: Human Rights, the Washington Redskins are not responsible for the conditions many Natives live in. I just fail to see that, so I guess I'm a racist dumbfuck. To me, the problems on reservations are far greater than that of a football team name (which some high schools on reservations have the Redskins as a mascot!). The living conditions on reservations IS a human rights issue, but not the name of a football team, and what I really don't get is that how many non-natives are now, like in the last year, calling for a name change, yet doing nothing to help the ones they are so offended for. Like I said, at least Dan Snyder is actually doing something about it. You may hate the guy, but he's making a positive change in the lives of Natives on their reservations.

re: few support the name. I don't know...do you have a poll? If phil is gonna bust my balls over a comment I made about kaiuss being offended for those not offended (in which I provided a link for), then he should bust your balls too.

If the Redskins name go, then ALL Native American sports mascots should go in my opinion. Why isn't Chief Wahoo getting as much attention as the Redskins? That is far worse IMO.

Whatever though, y'all are ganging up on me and it's not an argument worth having to me anymore. You are not changing my mind, and I'm not changing yours.

[Mecca]

id like to see either of you actually post statistics about who finds it offensive, otherwise you're just making them up. maybe next time i am on the reservation here and I see a redskins flag or logo, i'll take a picture so the people who think native americans find it highly offensive can see that its not always the case. I don't think the name needs to stay nor am I adamant that it needs to change, but it isn't as cut and dry as the two extreme arguments are being faced against each other on this page.

[BurtReynolds]

An RM poll should clear this right up.

[E.H. Ruddock]

An RM poll should clear this right up.

I laughed

[MadTIGERmaN]

re: Human Rights, the Washington Redskins are not responsible for the conditions many Natives live in. I just fail to see that, so I guess I'm a racist dumbfuck. To me, the problems on reservations are far greater than that of a football team name (which some high schools on reservations have the Redskins as a mascot!). The living conditions on reservations IS a human rights issue, but not the name of a football team, and what I really don't get is that how many non-natives are now, like in the last year, calling for a name change, yet doing nothing to help the ones they are so offended for. Like I said, at least Dan Snyder is actually doing something about it. You may hate the guy, but he's making a positive change in the lives of Natives on their reservations.

re: few support the name. I don't know...do you have a poll? If phil is gonna bust my balls over a comment I made about kaiuss being offended for those not offended (in which I provided a link for), then he should bust your balls too.

If the Redskins name go, then ALL Native American sports mascots should go in my opinion. Why isn't Chief Wahoo getting as much attention as the Redskins? That is far worse IMO.

Whatever though, y'all are ganging up on me and it's not an argument worth having to me anymore. You are not changing my mind, and I'm not changing yours.

1 - if changing the name, leads to Native teens having a better feeling of who they are as Native Americans, and raises their moral as a people instead of cartoon character, IT IS A HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE. Suicide rates among native american teens are 3x higher than the national average. http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... an-be-done

2 - Cleveland has been pro-active in recent years, Chief Wahoo is all but retired, and, Cleveland fans have started to remove him from old jerseys hats. Which started a twitter trend at one point - http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... an-be-done Daniel Snyder says he will NEVER change the name (you can capitalize that)

3 - There are many reasons leading to not huge numbers on how Native Americans view this, starting with, they have REAL problems. But, they have been protesting ALL the names for a long long time. This is not a new trend, this is not lawyers trying to make a name / money. The local DJ i posted a clip of above has been protesting these names since the 60's I believe.

4 - the Original honor was a racist asshole and named them the R word to show a fierce bloody warrior that would scalp and kill you and take no prisoners, a man who got other owners to make it a whites only league, and whos team was the last team to integrate

id like to see either of you actually post statistics about who finds it offensive, otherwise you're just making them up. maybe next time i am on the reservation here and I see a redskins flag or logo, i'll take a picture so the people who think native americans find it highly offensive can see that its not always the case. I don't think the name needs to stay nor am I adamant that it needs to change, but it isn't as cut and dry as the two extreme arguments are being faced against each other on this page.

Some dont find it offensive, its true, but Experts are still pointing to the horrible stereotypes generations of Native people have dealt with leading to low moral / low feelings about their ethnicity. IF changing the names helps, even 1 person feel better about themselves, ITS THE LEAST we can do, its a freaking mascot! for a sports team thats making BILLIONS off of their image. BILLIONS!

Considering what these people have put up with for 500+ years... (including my 3X great grandmother who was taken from her home and sent to boarding school to teach her to be white / literally beat the wild Indian from her) this shouldnt even be a discussion.

CHANGE THE NAME

[darth_vedder]

An RM poll should clear this right up.

I laughed

Me too, that's good internettin' right there.

[darth_vedder]

Found this article to be very interesting, and touches on what both MadTIGERmaN and me are talking about.

http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/Nov ... ticle-copy

I guess a lot of my frustration is coming from the fact that no one I've ever met has said "redskins" and meant anything by it other than a football team in the NFL. Me and the millions of fans of this team do not consider ourselves racist and we certainly do not use the word in a derogatory way. Nonetheless, you're right, it is offending some, and will continue to offend as long as it's the team's name, so yeah, it should change.

However, be careful what you wish for, b/c I'm betting you'll see the team rebranded as "the Washington Warriors", which like you said is a horrible solution. So if they do change to that, are we any better off?

On a larger scale, I worry about the slippery slope we are going down. Like for the Trade Commission to deem a word offensive...like what if they just start doing that? I think that is kinda scary. Also, this issue aside, in general we are really just too PC. Everyone is offended by something, and you just can't please everyone. When you start trying to please everyone, you please no one. I just worry, what next? I miss George Carlin in times like this.

[96583UP]

1 - if changing the name, leads to Native teens having a better feeling of who they are as NativeAmericans, and raises their morale as a people instead of cartoon character, IT IS A HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE. Suicide rates among native american teens are 3x higher than the national average. http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... an-be-done http://www.yspp.org/about_suicide/youth ... .htm#eight

2 - Cleveland has been pro-active in recent years, Chief Wahoo is all but retired, and, Cleveland fans have started to remove him from old jerseys hats. Which started a twitter trend at one point - http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... an-be-done Daniel SnyderGeorge Steinbrenner says he will NEVER change the name (you can capitalize that)

3 - There are many reasons leading to not huge numbers on how NativeAmericans view this, starting with, they have REAL problems. But, they have been protesting ALLmany of the names for a long long time. This is not a new trend, this is not lawyers trying to make a name / money. The local DJ i posted a clip of above has been protesting these names since the 60's I believe.

4 - the Original honorowner was a racist asshole and named them the RY word to show a fierce bloody warrior that would scalp and kill you and take no prisoners, a man who got other owners to make it a whites only league, and whos team was the last teamlate to integrate

id like to see either of you actually post statistics about who finds it offensive, otherwise you're just making them up. maybe next time i am on the reservationsubway here and I see a redskinsYankees flag or logo, i'll take a picture so the people who think native americans find it highly offensive can see that its not always the case. I don't think the name needs to stay nor am I adamant that it needs to change, but it isn't as cut and dry as the two extreme arguments are being faced against each other on this page.

Some dont find it offensive, its true, but Experts are still pointing to the horrible stereotypes generations of Nativeamerican people have dealt with leading to low moral / low feelings about their ethnicitynationality. IF changing the names helps, even 1 person feel better about themselves, ITS THE LEAST we can do, its a freaking mascot! for a sports team thats making BILLIONS off of their image. BILLIONS!

Considering what these people have put up with for 5200+ years... (including my 3X greatirish grandmother who was taken from her home and sent to boarding school to teach her to be white / literally beat the wild Indianhuman from her http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish- ... aves/31076) this shouldnt even be a discussion.

CHANGE THE NAME

i agree the Yankees should change their name

[darth_vedder]

This is a long read but interesting if anyone cares:

http://anthropology.si.edu/goddard/redskin.pdf

[darth_vedder]

Here is an excerpt from that link above:

One need not accept Harjo’s
unfounded claim that the word redskin
“had its origins in the practice of presenting
bloody red skins and scalps
as proof of Indian kill for bounty payments”
to accept that many find the
word objectionable in current use. But
the actual origin of the word is entirely
benign and reflects more positive
aspects of relations between Indians
and whites. It emerged at a specific
time in history among a small group of
men linked by joint activities that provided
the context that brought it forth.
Before its documented history can be
traced, however, the false history
given for it in standard reference
books must be expunged.

[MadTIGERmaN]

F

I guess a lot of my frustration is coming from the fact that no one I've ever met has said "redskins" and meant anything by it other than a football team in the NFL. Me and the millions of fans of this team do not consider ourselves racist and we certainly do not use the word in a derogatory way. Nonetheless, you're right, it is offending some, and will continue to offend as long as it's the team's name, so yeah, it should change.

However, be careful what you wish for, b/c I'm betting you'll see the team rebranded as "the Washington Warriors", which like you said is a horrible solution. So if they do change to that, are we any better off?

On a larger scale, I worry about the slippery slope we are going down. Like for the Trade Commission to deem a word offensive...like what if they just start doing that? I think that is kinda scary. Also, this issue aside, in general we are really just too PC. Everyone is offended by something, and you just can't please everyone. When you start trying to please everyone, you please no one. I just worry, what next? I miss George Carlin in times like this.

Would you walk up to a Native American and ask "are you a Redskin?"
thats the biggest tell that that word should be discarded.

I totally get the being overly pc, and people need to get a thicker skin, and whats next / where does it end?
But theyve been protesting this name, and slowly making progress on the mascot issue for a long long time. Its not something that just came up, in the overly PC world. As I said before, over 2000 showed up at the 91 super bowl to protest (and for the record, the 91 Washington team, could go toe to toe with anyone, that team was AWESOME)

the DJ that I mentioned before, was asked once on air about the FIghting Irish and their mascot, he said
"I could give you the number of 10 indians right now who are strongly against native mascots, how many pissed off leprechauns do you know?" with a wink and a chuckle, hes a great DJ, I wish I could find a good clip of him talking about the mascot issue.

[darth_vedder]

Would you walk up to a Native American and ask "are you a Redskin?"
thats the biggest tell that that word should be discarded.

Well, I think that is a very flawed question. I wouldn't walk up to any type of person of any walk of life and start out by saying "Are you...?" That's a dickhead move no matter who you are speaking to.

The only people I would refer to as "redskins" are current or former players or coaches of the NFL team.

[philpritchard]

So are you offended for the native americans who are not offended?

I'm glad to hear you've polled the Native American's to determine whether or not they're offended by the name.

Obviously you haven't read my post...I've sited numerous sources where many are not offended. Go ahead, read through my post here...I have quite a few links. Also, when did I say I have done any such polling?

I've read your posts and I've read the links, but none of those links dispel the idea that people are offended by the name. Pointing to a group of people who don't find the term offensive (even, in many cases, to a group of Native Americans) doesn't make the name less meaningful to those who do find it offensive. There are some very vocal groups who are offended by the name, and there are some other groups who are not offended by the name who have become very vocal in response. The second group doesn't negate the first.

I would be really interested to see how Native Americans with no interest in the controversy/team feel about the term. I think that would be far more telling than anything.

[philpritchard]

1 - if changing the name, leads to Native teens having a better feeling of who they are as NativeAmericans, and raises their morale as a people instead of cartoon character, IT IS A HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE. Suicide rates among native american teens are 3x higher than the national average. http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... an-be-done http://www.yspp.org/about_suicide/youth ... .htm#eight

2 - Cleveland has been pro-active in recent years, Chief Wahoo is all but retired, and, Cleveland fans have started to remove him from old jerseys hats. Which started a twitter trend at one point - http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news ... an-be-done Daniel SnyderGeorge Steinbrenner says he will NEVER change the name (you can capitalize that)

3 - There are many reasons leading to not huge numbers on how NativeAmericans view this, starting with, they have REAL problems. But, they have been protesting ALLmany of the names for a long long time. This is not a new trend, this is not lawyers trying to make a name / money. The local DJ i posted a clip of above has been protesting these names since the 60's I believe.

4 - the Original honorowner was a racist asshole and named them the RY word to show a fierce bloody warrior that would scalp and kill you and take no prisoners, a man who got other owners to make it a whites only league, and whos team was the last teamlate to integrate

id like to see either of you actually post statistics about who finds it offensive, otherwise you're just making them up. maybe next time i am on the reservationsubway here and I see a redskinsYankees flag or logo, i'll take a picture so the people who think native americans find it highly offensive can see that its not always the case. I don't think the name needs to stay nor am I adamant that it needs to change, but it isn't as cut and dry as the two extreme arguments are being faced against each other on this page.

Some dont find it offensive, its true, but Experts are still pointing to the horrible stereotypes generations of Nativeamerican people have dealt with leading to low moral / low feelings about their ethnicitynationality. IF changing the names helps, even 1 person feel better about themselves, ITS THE LEAST we can do, its a freaking mascot! for a sports team thats making BILLIONS off of their image. BILLIONS!

Considering what these people have put up with for 5200+ years... (including my 3X greatirish grandmother who was taken from her home and sent to boarding school to teach her to be white / literally beat the wild Indianhuman from her http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish- ... aves/31076) this shouldnt even be a discussion.

CHANGE THE NAME

i agree the Yankees should change their name

Man, those Yankees sure have had a rough past, what with the being forced off their land and the genocide and the forced assimilation and the residential schools and whatnot. They've been persecuted for far too long!

True story: I didn't know anyone considered Yankee a derogatory term until I read this thread. Until now, I assumed it simply meant "American" in the same way Canuck means "Canadian". Actually... I guess I still believe that.

[Green Habit]

Southerners of RM: do people there still try to use Yankee as a slur against non-Southerners?

[Biff Pocoroba]

Southerners of RM: do people there still try to use Yankee as a slur against non-Southerners?

I don't hear it much but maybe in the more rural areas it's still there.