The War on Terror /Central Asia/Mid East/Africa thread

[bart]

davejeni

[Simple Torture]

davejeni

That was him! Those were the days.

[broken iris]

It's surprising that the same-old, same-old conflict in Gaza is dominating the media coverage when the violence and daily death toll from what is happening in northern/central Iraq is higher than the Palestinian total since the latest conflict began. I guess maybe it's less fashionable to report.

[McParadigm]

Historically, witnessing an ongoing and futile human suffering drove us to anger and defiance. Now, it's just sort of boring, you know? Like, don't they have anything else to talk about?

And no, I don't think that human suffering is a major reason that Israeli conflict gets heavy news coverage. It's just a way of helping keep score.

[Fuck You Jobu]

Dimejinky, how is Israel supposed to respond to a group that has it in writing to destroy Israel? If this was your country, would you accept random rockets being shot at your civilian neighbors by a nation that has declared war on you?

The tragedy is that Israël is occupying land that is not theirs. Has never been theirs. And should never be theirs. And by occupying I mean both going and live there (colonists on the West Bank) and occupying as in shutting it down and controlling everything that goes on in it. Controlling electricity, water supply, food supply, medical supply, ... Gaza is a huge open air prison. That is the root of all evil that happens. Everything that follows, can be argued by 'yes, but he did that' and 'yes but he started that'. If you do not understand that this occupation leads to people organizing resistance, compare it to World War II (oh the irony): De Gaulle in France did not want to surrender to a foreign country occupying his land like Vichy even if that country might have not made life that hard for the French people. He called up for resistance.

I'm not saying Hamas are doing the right thing. Violence is never right. It's not right and they have learned by now that Israel will react to any stone thrown in their direction by killing 100s of Palestinians. But what do you want them do do? There's absolutely zero support from the international community. And whether they live 10 years in peace or not, the result is the same: Gaza remains a cage. And there's been enough studies and evidence how animal's/people's behavious responds to being locked in a cage. And the sad truth is: lots of those killed Palestinian kids (because there are lots of children being killed) will lead to its parents evolving from possible peaceful people to extremists who want revenge. It's very hard to be the opposite.

Death toll: 121-0. People saying they're only defending themselves do not have any moral compass. It's a simple genocide. And only because of the mighty Jewish lobby noone has the guts to do anything about it.

I've been to Israel & Palestine (West Bank) last year. I've seen Hebron. Spoken to people there. Don't let anyone fool you that Israeli's live everyday in fear of terror. Tel Aviv is a party city. Hebron is a war zone. Every day. And Israel knows damn well that with every new home they build in Hebron or anywhere else on the West Bank, they send the message out 'we do not want a solution for this situation, we want this land and the Palestinian people can go fuck themselves'. That's why Israel needs Hamas and will continue to talk about Hamas day and night. As long as they can pretend and lead people to believe Hamas is evil, they don't need to talk about peace and a possible 2-state solution, because let's be honest: they absolutely do not want that.

Anyway, I've met some awesome Israeli people as well, peaceful, and I'm sure there's many of them, and I'm absolutely not against an Israel state. So I really hope one day a solution comes. But I'm not sure it will come with people like Netanyahu in power who continue to build on the West Bank.

Dammit. I had a long post typed out for this and with DJ and I lost it....

[Fuck You Jobu]

For the conspiracy theorists out there...

(This site was a pretty prominent birth certificate doubter)

http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/officials-u- ... in-jordan/

Blowback! U.S. trained Islamists who joined ISIS
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/officials-u- ... Xs6Yhzi.99

Syrian rebels who would later join the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, or ISIS, were trained in 2012 by U.S. instructors working at a secret base in Jordan, according to informed Jordanian officials.

The officials said dozens of future ISIS members were trained at the time as part of covert aid to the insurgents targeting the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad in Syria. The officials said the training was not meant to be used for any future campaign in Iraq.

The Jordanian officials said all ISIS members who received U.S. training to fight in Syria were first vetted for any links to extremist groups like al-Qaida.

In February 2012, WND was first to report the U.S., Turkey and Jordan were running a training base for the Syrian rebels in the Jordanian town of Safawi in the country’s northern desert region.

That report has since been corroborated by numerous other media accounts.

Last March, the German weekly Der Spiegel reported Americans were training Syrian rebels in Jordan.

Quoting what it said were training participants and organizers, Der Spiegel reported it was not clear whether the Americans worked for private firms or were with the U.S. Army, but the magazine said some organizers wore uniforms. The training in Jordan reportedly focused on use of anti-tank weaponry.

The German magazine reported some 200 men received the training over the previous three months amid U.S. plans to train a total of 1,200 members of the Free Syrian Army in two camps in the south and the east of Jordan.

Britain’s Guardian newspaper also reported last March that U.S. trainers were aiding Syrian rebels in Jordan along with British and French instructors.

Reuters reported a spokesman for the U.S. Defense Department declined immediate comment on the German magazine’s report. The French foreign ministry and Britain’s foreign and defense ministries also would not comment to Reuters.

The Jordanian officials spoke to WND amid concern the sectarian violence in Iraq will spill over into their own country as well as into Syria.

ISIS previously posted a video on YouTube threatening to move on Jordan and “slaughter” King Abdullah, whom they view as an enemy of Islam.

WND reported last week that, according to Jordanian and Syrian regime sources, Saudi Arabia has been arming the ISIS and that the Saudis are a driving force in supporting the al-Qaida-linked group.

WND further reported that, according to a Shiite source in contact with a high official in the government of Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, the Obama administration has been aware for two months that the al-Qaida-inspired group that has taken over two Iraqi cities and now is threatening Baghdad also was training fighters in Turkey.

The source told WND that at least one of the training camps of the group Iraq of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Syria, the ISIS, is in the vicinity of Incirlik Air Base near Adana, Turkey, where American personnel and equipment are located.

He called Obama “an accomplice” in the attacks that are threatening the Maliki government the U.S. helped establish through the Iraq war.

The source said that after training in Turkey, thousands of ISIS fighters went to Iraq by way of Syria to join the effort to establish an Islamic caliphate subject to strict Islamic law, or Shariah.


Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2014/06/officials-u- ... Xs6Yhzi.99

[broken iris]

Historically, witnessing an ongoing and futile human suffering drove us to anger and defiance. Now, it's just sort of boring, you know? Like, don't they have anything else to talk about?

And no, I don't think that human suffering is a major reason that Israeli conflict gets heavy news coverage. It's just a way of helping keep score.

I was trying to imply it's done intentionally so we aren't forced to think about all the other, arguably more serious conflicts in the region. It's makes everything simple to paint it as "the illegal state jewz" versus the Palestinians or the freedom loving democratic Israelis defending their homeland against the Hamas terrorists, depending on who you believe, but it ignores the centuries of conflict in the region prior to the establishment of Israel and the suddenly-no-longer-cold war between Sunni and Shia factions in Iraq which could be considered a proxy war between the Saudis and Iran (ala Vietnam). Angus was relatively accurate when he described Gaza as prison, but it something else... it's a misdirection. A Watchmen-esque trick designed to preoccupy the citizens of the Middle East while their rulers exploit and enslave them as they drain the one natural resource they have available. Did you know ISIL established a "Caliphate" in Iraq, something we were told was just neo-con fear-mongering and would never happen? That Iran is stalling nuclear talks by demanding a doubling of allowable centrifuges? That Boko Haram has killed over 1000 people in the last two months? Maybe not, but you sure as hell know about the details of the Israeli-Palestine conflict. /conspiracy-rant

[McParadigm]

That Boko Haram has killed over 1000 people in the last two months?

Hardly news. Whiter Shade of Pale is a great song.

[Birds in Hell]

That Boko Haram has killed over 1000 people in the last two months?

Hardly news. Whiter Shade of Pale is a great song.

[dimejinky99]

the willfull and insistent myopia of the US towards this situation is mind numbing though.

stop funding them. Stop selling them weapons. Stop supporting the murder of innocents.

i pre-empted eds rant and didnt even know i was doing it..

[Tuolumne]

Dimejinky, how is Israel supposed to respond to a group that has it in writing to destroy Israel? If this was your country, would you accept random rockets being shot at your civilian neighbors by a nation that has declared war on you?

The tragedy is that Israël is occupying land that is not theirs. Has never been theirs. And should never be theirs. And by occupying I mean both going and live there (colonists on the West Bank) and occupying as in shutting it down and controlling everything that goes on in it. Controlling electricity, water supply, food supply, medical supply, ... Gaza is a huge open air prison. That is the root of all evil that happens. Everything that follows, can be argued by 'yes, but he did that' and 'yes but he started that'. If you do not understand that this occupation leads to people organizing resistance, compare it to World War II (oh the irony): De Gaulle in France did not want to surrender to a foreign country occupying his land like Vichy even if that country might have not made life that hard for the French people. He called up for resistance.

I'm not saying Hamas are doing the right thing. Violence is never right. It's not right and they have learned by now that Israel will react to any stone thrown in their direction by killing 100s of Palestinians. But what do you want them do do? There's absolutely zero support from the international community. And whether they live 10 years in peace or not, the result is the same: Gaza remains a cage. And there's been enough studies and evidence how animal's/people's behavious responds to being locked in a cage. And the sad truth is: lots of those killed Palestinian kids (because there are lots of children being killed) will lead to its parents evolving from possible peaceful people to extremists who want revenge. It's very hard to be the opposite.

Death toll: 121-0. People saying they're only defending themselves do not have any moral compass. It's a simple genocide. And only because of the mighty Jewish lobby noone has the guts to do anything about it.

I've been to Israel & Palestine (West Bank) last year. I've seen Hebron. Spoken to people there. Don't let anyone fool you that Israeli's live everyday in fear of terror. Tel Aviv is a party city. Hebron is a war zone. Every day. And Israel knows damn well that with every new home they build in Hebron or anywhere else on the West Bank, they send the message out 'we do not want a solution for this situation, we want this land and the Palestinian people can go fuck themselves'. That's why Israel needs Hamas and will continue to talk about Hamas day and night. As long as they can pretend and lead people to believe Hamas is evil, they don't need to talk about peace and a possible 2-state solution, because let's be honest: they absolutely do not want that.

Anyway, I've met some awesome Israeli people as well, peaceful, and I'm sure there's many of them, and I'm absolutely not against an Israel state. So I really hope one day a solution comes. But I'm not sure it will come with people like Netanyahu in power who continue to build on the West Bank.

Thank you, thank you, and thank you. Couldn't say it better myself. No need to sift through the BS out there, read the above post and it says it all.

[broken iris]

I'm not saying Hamas are doing the right thing. Violence is never right. It's not right and they have learned by now that Israel will react to any stone thrown in their direction by killing 100s of Palestinians. But what do you want them do do?

Stop launching missiles indiscriminately at civilian targets, especially if what is in bold is true. It is a crime against humanity (yes, Jews are humans too guys).

[Tuolumne]

I think for this most recent spate of warfare, you should tally up and count the civilian death toll on both sides. Do it. You'll find it is VERY lop-sided. VERY. I mean, VERY.

[broken iris]

I think for this most recent spate of warfare, you should tally up and count the civilian death toll on both sides. Do it. You'll find it is VERY lop-sided. VERY. I mean, VERY.

So your point here is that because Hamas has failed to in their repeated barrages of attempts to indiscriminately slaughter civilians, it doesn't count?


And before we get into "you support child killers", we need to (yet again) do a very simple thought experiment. Look at this:

A B

Both of these are letters. Both are blue. I can make a post on RM that says "A" is a letter and it is blue without denying that "B" is also a letter and is also blue.

[Tuolumne]

I think for this most recent spate of warfare, you should tally up and count the civilian death toll on both sides. Do it. You'll find it is VERY lop-sided. VERY. I mean, VERY.

So your point here is that because Hamas has failed to in their repeated barrages of attempts to indiscriminately slaughter civilians, it doesn't count?


And before we get into "you support child killers", we need to (yet again) do a very simple thought experiment. Look at this:

A B

Both of these are letters. Both are blue. I can make a post on RM that says "A" is a letter and it is blue without denying that "B" is also a letter and is also blue.

I hate Hamas, let's make that clear.

But let's get real, who has 3 billion dollars worth of military might? And who has some rockets? And if I'm answering your questions, can you answer why 95% of the deaths (largely civilian, atleast half women and children) are on one side? Is one side simply miliatrily incompetent? Are you serious? But I'm wasting my time here, you;ve clearly made up your mind, and I've made up mine. I'm really writing this for someone who is trying to learn this for the first time. This is Andre the Giant beating up on Hulk Hogan's unruly 3 year old grandson. Everyone knows who's got the might, let's not kid ourselves with stupid eye tests.

[Tuolumne]

I think for this most recent spate of warfare, you should tally up and count the civilian death toll on both sides. Do it. You'll find it is VERY lop-sided. VERY. I mean, VERY.

So your point here is that because Hamas has failed to in their repeated barrages of attempts to indiscriminately slaughter civilians, it doesn't count?


And before we get into "you support child killers", we need to (yet again) do a very simple thought experiment. Look at this:

A B

Both of these are letters. Both are blue. I can make a post on RM that says "A" is a letter and it is blue without denying that "B" is also a letter and is also blue.

I hate Hamas, let's make that clear.

But let's get real, who has 3 billion dollars worth of military might? And who has some rockets? And if I'm answering your questions, can you answer why 95% of the deaths (largely civilian, atleast half women and children) are on one side? Is one side simply militarily incompetent? Are you serious? But I'm wasting my time here, you've clearly made up your mind, and I've made up mine. I'm really writing this for someone who is trying to learn this for the first time. This is Andre the Giant beating up on Hulk Hogan's unruly 3 year old grandson. Everyone knows who's got the might, let's not kid ourselves with stupid eye tests.

[McParadigm]

Did you know ISIL established a "Caliphate" in Iraq, something we were told was just neo-con fear-mongering and would never happen?

If only the neocons hadn't created a power vacuum gee wiz.

[McParadigm]

That Boko Haram has killed over 1000 people in the last two months?

Hardly news. Whiter Shade of Pale is a great song.

As nyuck nyuck as it was, this was just about the most fun I've ever had making a post.

[BurtReynolds]

Boko Haram would be a sweet band name.

[broken iris]

I hate Hamas, let's make that clear.

But let's get real, who has 3 billion dollars worth of military might? And who has some rockets? And if I'm answering your questions, can you answer why 95% of the deaths (largely civilian, atleast half women and children) are on one side? Is one side simply militarily incompetent? Are you serious?

I'll quote Rabbi Eric Yoffie from Time Mag. on this:

The implication of the “disproportionality” claim is that, given their losses, the people of Gaza are the real victims. But morally and politically, this is an intolerable and distorted interpretation of the realities in the region.

The reason that Hamas has not killed more Israelis is not because they haven’t tried. In the seven years during which it has controlled Gaza, Hamas and its proxies have fired more than 5000 rockets into Israel; almost 800 have been launched just this past week. Each one has been aimed at civilians and intended to murder and maim. The reason that more Israelis have not died is that the weapons are mostly crude and inaccurate and that, over time, Israel has prepared herself with shelters, mandatory military training for all citizens, warning sirens and an anti-missile system. In addition, Israelis have been just plain lucky.

But that luck could change at any moment. If a single rocket were to hit a school or a mall, the number of dead could balance out in a flash. Then, to be sure, you would have “proportionality,” but there is no moral calculus by which additional dead civilians is a preferable outcome.

Everyone knows who's got the might, let's not kid ourselves with stupid eye tests.

The point that was to demonstrate my criticizing of the behaviors of Hamas is in no way an absolution of Israel for it's actions. There were two letters (countries) both are blue (war mongering killers) and the fact that I mention one is clearly blue (again, evil) does not mean I am denying the other is just as blue. Far too often the default position on war is framed like a sporting event where we have to choose a side to root for and moralize that the actions of that side somehow more just. Sometimes that takes the shape of thinking our is side preventing an alleged genocide, righting historical wrongs, emancipating a population from a dictatorship, defeating Marxism, decrying a 'disproportional' response. But that is not the correct approach. We must try to understand both sides and be willing to accept that not only was our initial pick wrong, but that there are no good choices. No underdogs to root for regardless of the score... and that it is the game itself we must decry not the specific players.