Strat wrote:I think daves performance on vitalogy was pretty weak actually. The live versions before he ht the studio were a bit better. I dont think he fit the material. Irons did. Big time.
At times it sounds as if he was drumming on a completely different song - one that would fit Vs. more than Vitalogy.
I feel he was a one trick pony. That trick suited the band fucking amazingly for the Ten/Vs but I just don't feel it the same with Vitalogy material.
Id agree with that.
He's much more of a direct/straight forward drummer.
And this record isn't like that. Be interesting to know how jack would have handled it.
Strat wrote:I think daves performance on vitalogy was pretty weak actually. The live versions before he ht the studio were a bit better. I dont think he fit the material. Irons did. Big time.
At times it sounds as if he was drumming on a completely different song - one that would fit Vs. more than Vitalogy.
I feel he was a one trick pony. That trick suited the band fucking amazingly for the Ten/Vs but I just don't feel it the same with Vitalogy material.
This makes sense. It would explain why he didn't have much of a career after PJ, he would have probably been more successful a decade earlier.
Guys, I completely disagree. The performances by Dave on this album are absolutely in sync with each track and are top notch. Sure they share a similar attack to the VS material but this was all written/rec'd during the VS tour, not written as a studio album ala No Code.
If you take each track into consideration there is nothing that can be levelled at the first four tracks. Nothingman could be a little subtler (those hats can be intrusive) but really there was no problem then and I'm fine with the performance now. Whipping is beat perfect (listen to 1:14 and not harden up), Corduroy too. Betterman was the live drums from Atlanta. Immortality does sound like an early take and we don't know where Dave could have taken it live. Jack got to live with that track whereas I believe Dave probably only played it a handful of times. Remember they were working quickly in the studio and not tracking for weeks on end.
The 3 extra tracks... PryTo is a jam. Bugs has the necessary percussion and only Aye Davinita comes across as maybe being sub-par to what Jack could have jammed. But AD is still freaking awesome.
Dave's energy on these tracks is without question. He was such a powerful player that maybe he dominated the sound of the band (N4Y, Whipping) but that also brought us Tremor Christ and Last Exit. The tension in these performances (and VS) was what was so exciting and fresh. If he wasn't fired I'm not sure what we would have heard next. Ed's sensibilities were changing and Dave took the brunt of it.
This album is probably my number 1 drumming influence. The sounds, the performance, the energy, the cohesion with every other instrument. Dave's kick sits with Jeff and Stone while his hats and cymbal work play off Ed and Mike.
As to his not having a career after PJ, the interviews suggest he was completely burnt by the treatment he received. I'd love to hear more of his drumming though. Perhaps he actually is an asshole. But he was the dispensable asshole amongst other assholes.
LetMeSleep wrote:Guys, I completely disagree. The performances by Dave on this album are absolutely in sync with each track and are top notch. Sure they share a similar attack to the VS material but this was all written/rec'd during the VS tour, not written as a studio album ala No Code.
If you take each track into consideration there is nothing that can be levelled at the first four tracks. Nothingman could be a little subtler (those hats can be intrusive) but really there was no problem then and I'm fine with the performance now. Whipping is beat perfect (listen to 1:14 and not harden up), Corduroy too. Betterman was the live drums from Atlanta. Immortality does sound like an early take and we don't know where Dave could have taken it live. Jack got to live with that track whereas I believe Dave probably only played it a handful of times. Remember they were working quickly in the studio and not tracking for weeks on end.
The 3 extra tracks... PryTo is a jam. Bugs has the necessary percussion and only Aye Davinita comes across as maybe being sub-par to what Jack could have jammed. But AD is still freaking awesome.
Dave's energy on these tracks is without question. He was such a powerful player that maybe he dominated the sound of the band (N4Y, Whipping) but that also brought us Tremor Christ and Last Exit. The tension in these performances (and VS) was what was so exciting and fresh. If he wasn't fired I'm not sure what we would have heard next. Ed's sensibilities were changing and Dave took the brunt of it.
This album is probably my number 1 drumming influence. The sounds, the performance, the energy, the cohesion with every other instrument. Dave's kick sits with Jeff and Stone while his hats and cymbal work play off Ed and Mike.
As to his not having a career after PJ, the interviews suggest he was completely burnt by the treatment he received. I'd love to hear more of his drumming though. Perhaps he actually is an asshole. But he was the dispensable asshole amongst other assholes.
Dave was definitely a straight up drummer with lots of groove and bounce. His playing had a real snap to it and most of the music on Vs and Vitalogy was so tightly wound that it worked brilliantly. When you imagine those songs in your head (well when I do) the drums are so much a part of it. Go, Animal, Last Exit, STBC, Whipping. They are all so drum heavy and damn percussive. Take a song like Hail Hail and Jack is there but not as in yer face. Stone drives that whereas before it was Dave and Stone driving the riffs.
I completely agree that No Code wouldn't exist if Dave stayed in the band. Those tracks needed the rolling as much as the rocking.
I don't think there was any musical reason for Dave's exit from the band, I think one of the band (Mike?) says as much in the PJ20 book; it was strictly a personality issue and, even then, only for Ed and Jeff.
As much as I think the band made a great deal of their best music with Jack behind the kit, I don't think any of their drummers have been as natural a fit for the band as Dave was. I wouldn't change a thing about any of his parts, they're all perfect for the songs.
Birds in Hell wrote:I don't think there was any musical reason for Dave's exit from the band, I think one of the band (Mike?) says as much in the PJ20 book; it was strictly a personality issue and, even then, only for Ed and Jeff.
I think the main issue with Dave A was, that he loved and relsihed the whole celebrity/rockstar lifestyle. Whereas Ed, and to some extent the rest of the band, weren't comfortable at all with it. I think a big part of the whole 'grunge' scene was that it wasn't cool to be famous and enjoy it at the same time.
Dave: "Yeah baby, we're famous and rich and have chicks and sign boobs and party and LET'S GET MORE FAMOUS! I'm gonna but a Ferrari! And a mansion! And any other shit just because I can! FUCK YEAH!!"
Rest of the band: "Man, this is not cool. Fucking promo shoots are bullshit. We're cooler than this. God I hate my life, this is so hard. We're being used as pawns to make other people money. Fuck this. Let's not smile, we'll brood harder then we've ever brooded before."
Rangi Guy wrote:So skating back to the train station after work today things went wrong.....now my skateboard is at the bottom of the harbour
Birds in Hell wrote:I don't think there was any musical reason for Dave's exit from the band, I think one of the band (Mike?) says as much in the PJ20 book; it was strictly a personality issue and, even then, only for Ed and Jeff.
As much as I think the band made a great deal of their best music with Jack behind the kit, I don't think any of their drummers have been as natural a fit for the band as Dave was. I wouldn't change a thing about any of his parts, they're all perfect for the songs.
Didn't Jeff make comments about musical headspace and that Dave couldn't reference The Buzzcocks. Plus Ed thought his kit was too RAWK.
Birds in Hell wrote:I don't think there was any musical reason for Dave's exit from the band, I think one of the band (Mike?) says as much in the PJ20 book; it was strictly a personality issue and, even then, only for Ed and Jeff.
As much as I think the band made a great deal of their best music with Jack behind the kit, I don't think any of their drummers have been as natural a fit for the band as Dave was. I wouldn't change a thing about any of his parts, they're all perfect for the songs.
Didn't Jeff make comments about musical headspace and that Dave couldn't reference The Buzzcocks. Plus Ed thought his kit was too RAWK.
"Dave was a different egg for sure. There were a lot of things, personality wise, where I didn't see eye to eye with him. He was more comfortable being a rock star than the rest of us. Partying, girls, cars. I don't know if anyone was in the same space. Also, with Dave, musically, when you'd say, "I want this to sound more like the Buzzcocks," I don't think he related to that at all. He was a technical guy, and we all played by feeling, or by seeing bands" - Jeff Ament.
