The God topic

[Rangi Guy]

The whole "You can't REALLY know" argument seems insane to me. If some dude walks up to me on the street and tells me there's an invisible rabbit hovering above my head that controls my destiny, well, I don't really have any way of KNOWING that's not true either. But that's not going to stop me from easily determining that the assertion is pure bullshit. The only reason deities aren't ridiculed out of credibility like that invisible rabbit would be is because they benefit from centuries of ingrained tolerance and conditioning. People give the concept of God the time of day because society fosters that attitude toward current religions.

The fact that "we can't really know" doesn't mean that we should just abandon logic and critical thinking and decide to believe in "maybe."

Well I guess you can put me square in the middle of the 'pure bullshit' believers....

[LoathedVermin72]

The whole "You can't REALLY know" argument seems insane to me. If some dude walks up to me on the street and tells me there's an invisible rabbit hovering above my head that controls my destiny, well, I don't really have any way of KNOWING that's not true either. But that's not going to stop me from easily determining that the assertion is pure bullshit. The only reason deities aren't ridiculed out of credibility like that invisible rabbit would be is because they benefit from centuries of ingrained tolerance and conditioning. People give the concept of God the time of day because society fosters that attitude toward current religions.

The fact that "we can't really know" doesn't mean that we should just abandon logic and critical thinking and decide to believe in "maybe."

Well I guess you can put me square in the middle of the 'pure bullshit' believers....

Wait, are you saying that you believe in bullshit, or that you agree that it's bullshit?

[Rangi Guy]

The whole "You can't REALLY know" argument seems insane to me. If some dude walks up to me on the street and tells me there's an invisible rabbit hovering above my head that controls my destiny, well, I don't really have any way of KNOWING that's not true either. But that's not going to stop me from easily determining that the assertion is pure bullshit. The only reason deities aren't ridiculed out of credibility like that invisible rabbit would be is because they benefit from centuries of ingrained tolerance and conditioning. People give the concept of God the time of day because society fosters that attitude toward current religions.

The fact that "we can't really know" doesn't mean that we should just abandon logic and critical thinking and decide to believe in "maybe."

Well I guess you can put me square in the middle of the 'pure bullshit' believers....

Wait, are you saying that you believe in bullshit, or that you agree that it's bullshit?

I'm saying I believe in God/Jesus - I'm in that camp

[BurtReynolds]

Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.

[LoathedVermin72]

Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.

I believe in people. I believe in the world. I believe in progress. I believe that morality is its own reward.

[tommymtcom]

Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.

I believe in people. I believe in the world. I believe in progress. I believe that morality is its own reward.

I believe the children are our future.

[LoathedVermin72]

Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.

I believe in people. I believe in the world. I believe in progress. I believe that morality is its own reward.

I believe the children are our future.

I'm pretty sure that's just a literal statement

[LoathedVermin72]

This may only apply indirectly, but I really love this Steve Albini quote:

"My political perspective is progressive. I believe a society with a conscience should actively try to incorporate, liberate and support as many of its people as possible, and the story of our country is a lurching, faltering progress toward that ideal. Gradually, eventually, our side always wins. Slavery ended, women are no longer property and can vote, children no longer work in mines (although we still send them to prison), institutionalized racism is dying, we got out of Vietnam, being Queer is no longer criminal... It can take decades, and there are obviously still fish to fry, but the moral, generous and forgiving nature of mankind expresses itself piecemeal as the stones in the right-wing reactionary wall, sexism, racism, class identity, greed, exclusivity, violence and revenge all erode over time.

The progressive positions are all eventually adopted not because we've overpowered our opposition, but because the positions themselves resonate with the American identity; we want everybody to have a fighting chance at happiness and to live a fulfilling life of his own choosing. Whenever the right wing scores a victory on an issue, it is (in the words of the poet John Houlihan) a small, temporary victory won by small, temporary men. The right wing seizes territory during its season of power, which is ceded back to civilization and then some when its season ends.

Basically I think selfishness and revenge are the ugliest human impulses and I root for anyone who helps quiet them."

[BurtReynolds]

sounds more ethical than moral, really. not that I'm an expert.

[LoathedVermin72]

sounds more ethical than moral, really. not that I'm an expert.

What's the difference?

Definition of Ethical: "of or relating to moral principles or the branch of knowledge dealing with these."

[malice]

morals are societal standards. they generally arise out of a society's development as a way for all participants to live with one another without greatly upsetting the balance created within a society and are generally beneficial to the continued growth of the society. religion has always been closely tied to morals specifically because of the implicit threat or promise of punishment or reward after death from holding up those morals. people are fully capable of having morals that aren't tied to religion, and without the reward/punishment deal going on.

i would put forth the idea that religion is a way of upholding moral standards for use by the vast majority of people out there who are not 'evolved' enough to be decent towards others - and that religious heads know this and use the punishment/reward system as a way of controlling the masses.

[LoathedVermin72]

morals are societal standards. they generally arise out of a society's development as a way for all participants to live with one another without greatly upsetting the balance created within a society and are generally beneficial to the continued growth of the society. religion has always been closely tied to morals specifically because of the implicit threat or promise of punishment or reward after death from holding up those morals. people are fully capable of having morals that aren't tied to religion, and without the reward/punishment deal going on.

i would put forth the idea that religion is a way of upholding moral standards for use by the vast majority of people out there who are not 'evolved' enough to be decent towards others - and that religious heads know this and use the punishment/reward system as a way of controlling the masses.

I think that's an antiquated concept when it comes to modern civilization, and that religion has become perhaps the single largest obstacle preventing us from reaching a truly moral, enlightened era. There's probably some irony in there.

[nyquillyn]

What malice said.

I cringe at the word "morals" because it has become a word that connotes religious standards/beliefs more than human decency.

[malice]

morals are societal standards. they generally arise out of a society's development as a way for all participants to live with one another without greatly upsetting the balance created within a society and are generally beneficial to the continued growth of the society. religion has always been closely tied to morals specifically because of the implicit threat or promise of punishment or reward after death from holding up those morals. people are fully capable of having morals that aren't tied to religion, and without the reward/punishment deal going on.

i would put forth the idea that religion is a way of upholding moral standards for use by the vast majority of people out there who are not 'evolved' enough to be decent towards others - and that religious heads know this and use the punishment/reward system as a way of controlling the masses.

I think that's an antiquated concept when it comes to modern civilization, and that religion has become perhaps the single largest obstacle preventing us from reaching a truly moral, enlightened era. There's probably some irony in there.

please elaborate - in what way is it antiquated, and in what way do we become a more enlightened society - i don't think religion is a great institution at all, i'm just trying to understand what you're saying here.

[malice]

What malice said.

I cringe at the word "morals" because it has become a word that connotes religious standards/beliefs more than human decency.

i have to agree. what most religion claims is moral, depending on the amount of stringency, is usually harmful in some way to some group of people, and human decency is all about not being harmful to others...
the catholic church is a prime offender in this kind of thing, in my own opinion.

[LoathedVermin72]

morals are societal standards. they generally arise out of a society's development as a way for all participants to live with one another without greatly upsetting the balance created within a society and are generally beneficial to the continued growth of the society. religion has always been closely tied to morals specifically because of the implicit threat or promise of punishment or reward after death from holding up those morals. people are fully capable of having morals that aren't tied to religion, and without the reward/punishment deal going on.

i would put forth the idea that religion is a way of upholding moral standards for use by the vast majority of people out there who are not 'evolved' enough to be decent towards others - and that religious heads know this and use the punishment/reward system as a way of controlling the masses.

I think that's an antiquated concept when it comes to modern civilization, and that religion has become perhaps the single largest obstacle preventing us from reaching a truly moral, enlightened era. There's probably some irony in there.

please elaborate - in what way is it antiquated, and in what way do we become a more enlightened society - i don't think religion is a great institution at all, i'm just trying to understand what you're saying here.

Pretty much what you just said:

What malice said.

I cringe at the word "morals" because it has become a word that connotes religious standards/beliefs more than human decency.

i have to agree. what most religion claims is moral, depending on the amount of stringency, is usually harmful in some way to some group of people, and human decency is all about not being harmful to others...
the catholic church is a prime offender in this kind of thing, in my own opinion.

I mean "antiquated" in that the vast majority of modern society no longer (if they ever even did in the first place) needs religion to determine right from wrong, and now religion is just hindering progress (such as Islam keeping swaths of people in Dark Age mentality or Christianity continuing to retard progress in areas like Gay Rights and Women's Rights).

[BurtReynolds]

I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion. If I dig far enough, I don't find much basis for one set of moral system over another, but I'm getting all existential and weird and I'll just shut up now. I've been on a kick lately.

I'm intrigued by Sartre's ideas about your actions defining what it means to be a human, but then again it ultimately sounds as hollow as anything else. I can't totally wrap my head around him, though. I also think he might be a total fraud.

[Rangi Guy]

Can we please not dub Bigoted men in as 'Christianity'?

The whole organized religion thing has gone to shit - I'll give you that, but that's just because of man's own greed and intolerance. Too many people in 'high' positions within the organized structure are just trying to push their own agenda

[LoathedVermin72]

I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion.

I'll respond to this more in depth when I have access to a computer later, but right now I'll just say that atheism is a religion as much as "Off" is a TV channel.

[BurtReynolds]

I think most "atheists" really just replace one irrational set of beliefs with another irrational set of beliefs. I'd say its still religion.

I'll respond to this more in depth when I have access to a computer later, but right now I'll just say that atheism is a religion as much as "Off" is a TV channel.

I agree, but think most atheists are unknowingly acting and thinking as if it is a channel. edit: eh forget it.