BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.
I try to start by properly quantifying everything as what it is. So, if we are talking about right and wrong for human beings, we first need to understand what a human being really is, and anything that factors into their behaviour or "choice". I guess you might say all ethical or moral deliberations are a matter of context?
which as I read more of the thread seems to be what you take Sartre's position to be. What exactly have you read by him?
Last edited by Dev on Thu January 08, 2015 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rangi Guy wrote:“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Read: Love a supernatural deity before your fellow humans.
Pretty much - don't put things of this world before the one who created you...... (if you believe in this faith system), don't see the issue with that
I understand; I've had many a long discussion with my mother about this subject. I get that Christians believe that matters of this world are petty by comparison to the divine. But, to me, that first suggestion immediately sets off alarm bells. Nothing should be given that kind of absolute faith, nothing should wield that kind of unconditional power over a person. Even saying a sentence like "don't put things of this world before [etc.]" is a red flag to me. It bristles against the deepest fiber of my being.
And that's cool - I'm not here to try and convince you should believe what I believe. Was just trying to point out that as a Christian I'm not actually cherry picking what I believe so much as following those statements
But aren't you kind of cherry-picking by choosing that as the basis of your faith and ignoring everything else in the Bible?
Not ignoring it - believing that Jesus was God in human form - his words just kind of superseded the earlier stuff handed down before. Except for maybe the Sabbath one - all the other 10 commandments would be kept by following the original post. I can't say I'm any good at keeping them though, but I try. Truth is - I'm pretty awful person, just trying each day to be that little bit better
So what you're saying is the New Testament wasn't a sequel so much as a reboot.
Anders wrote:I do not have a «neoliberal assessment of geopolitics», so please stop writing that I do.
Rangi Guy wrote:“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind’This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
Read: Love a supernatural deity before your fellow humans.
Pretty much - don't put things of this world before the one who created you...... (if you believe in this faith system), don't see the issue with that
I understand; I've had many a long discussion with my mother about this subject. I get that Christians believe that matters of this world are petty by comparison to the divine. But, to me, that first suggestion immediately sets off alarm bells. Nothing should be given that kind of absolute faith, nothing should wield that kind of unconditional power over a person. Even saying a sentence like "don't put things of this world before [etc.]" is a red flag to me. It bristles against the deepest fiber of my being.
And that's cool - I'm not here to try and convince you should believe what I believe. Was just trying to point out that as a Christian I'm not actually cherry picking what I believe so much as following those statements
But aren't you kind of cherry-picking by choosing that as the basis of your faith and ignoring everything else in the Bible?
Not ignoring it - believing that Jesus was God in human form - his words just kind of superseded the earlier stuff handed down before. Except for maybe the Sabbath one - all the other 10 commandments would be kept by following the original post. I can't say I'm any good at keeping them though, but I try. Truth is - I'm pretty awful person, just trying each day to be that little bit better
So what you're saying is the New Testament wasn't a sequel so much as a reboot.
Kind of - the old way wasn't working
That doesn't mean that there aren't things of importance in the Old Testament - I'm certainly not saying that. Just that I hold the words that Jesus spoke at the highest importance
Also the Old Testament foretells a lot of stuff that happens in the New Testament etc...
Last edited by Rangi Guy on Thu January 08, 2015 4:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.
I'm pretty much a Golden Rule type guy. I try not to do bad things because I think of how awful it would be if such a bad thing happened to me. Nothing very supernatural involved in that.
thing is the golden rule only tells you what not to do. it doesn't tell you what to do.
BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.
I'm pretty much a Golden Rule type guy. I try not to do bad things because I think of how awful it would be if such a bad thing happened to me. Nothing very supernatural involved in that.
thing is the golden rule only tells you what not to do. it doesn't tell you what to do.
turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.
Yeah, you're sounding like Sam Harris, who I really like, who basically says, "ok, the majority of muslims have extreme views which impose on human rights and therefore we should not tolerate these groups, but when we criticize them, we are accused of Islamaphobia by other liberals which doesn't make sense because those people are supposed to stand up for human rights." But the thing people with this position don't consider is the historical reality of the middle, which has been meddled with endlessly by countries like the USA. For example, ISIS is literally a product of the USA fucking with Iraq, so when we talk about extremists representing the majority of muslims we should maybe think about the circumstances that have lead to extremism.
BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.
I'm pretty much a Golden Rule type guy. I try not to do bad things because I think of how awful it would be if such a bad thing happened to me. Nothing very supernatural involved in that.
thing is the golden rule only tells you what not to do. it doesn't tell you what to do.
You're thinking of the Silver Rule.
lol, right. but still the golden rule is not comprehensive, how are we to know how we should best be treated?
malice wrote:morals are societal standards. they generally arise out of a society's development as a way for all participants to live with one another without greatly upsetting the balance created within a society and are generally beneficial to the continued growth of the society. religion has always been closely tied to morals specifically because of the implicit threat or promise of punishment or reward after death from holding up those morals. people are fully capable of having morals that aren't tied to religion, and without the reward/punishment deal going on.
i would put forth the idea that religion is a way of upholding moral standards for use by the vast majority of people out there who are not 'evolved' enough to be decent towards others - and that religious heads know this and use the punishment/reward system as a way of controlling the masses.
I like this post. Reminds me of my old man. but I might argue that religion's real purpose is more of an existential worldview from which to act on, which I think can be different than a moral compass. I just assume that even religious people make moral decisions more pragmatically, than referring to their religious beliefs. their religious beliefs are what keep their conscience clean once the deed is done. if anyone finds this post in anyway relevant, I'll be pleasantly surprised.
turned2black wrote:One thing that annoys me about atheists is that some of us are more than willing to take on Christianity, but then give Muslims some kind of "cultural" pass. Fuck that shit. I realize that has a lot to do with the fact that many Christians in power are rich white guys, but still. I hate it when liberal atheists aren't willing to take on Islam. That was always one of my favorite things about Hitchens, he took on everybody with equal gusto.
Yeah, you're sounding like Sam Harris, who I really like, who basically says, "ok, the majority of muslims have extreme views which impose on human rights and therefore we should not tolerate these groups, but when we criticize them, we are accused of Islamaphobia by other liberals which doesn't make sense because those people are supposed to stand up for human rights." But the thing people with this position don't consider is the historical reality of the middle, which has been meddled with endlessly by countries like the USA. For example, ISIS is literally a product of the USA fucking with Iraq, so when we talk about extremists representing the majority of muslims we should maybe think about the circumstances that have lead to extremism.
I agree with that. And the socio-economics behind it all. But the hatred that the Quran teaches is a big part of it as well. It's the perfect recipe for religious extremism.
BurtReynolds wrote:Heh I was gonna say "at least Christianity ignores much of the worst stuff".
What gets me is that much of the worst stuff in the Quran is also in the bible, but Christians are usually oblivious. I always thought there would be far fewer Christians if more people actually read the Bible, rather than have someone read completely unrelated and carefully selected passages out of it. But at least Christianity ignores much of it when it suits us. I mean, not working on Sunday is one of the Big Ten, but most ignore that one. Usury? Thats cool now since our whole society is built on it. and so on.
there seem to be plenty of christians who honour the bible in no way. was talking to a lady on christmas who was all, "who knows who wrote that shit, but I still consider myself a christian."
BurtReynolds wrote:Heh I was gonna say "at least Christianity ignores much of the worst stuff".
What gets me is that much of the worst stuff in the Quran is also in the bible, but Christians are usually oblivious. I always thought there would be far fewer Christians if more people actually read the Bible, rather than have someone read completely unrelated and carefully selected passages out of it. But at least Christianity ignores much of it when it suits us. I mean, not working on Sunday is one of the Big Ten, but most ignore that one. Usury? Thats cool now since our whole society is built on it. and so on.
there seem to be plenty of christians who honour the bible in no way. was talking to a lady on christmas who was all, "who knows who wrote that shit, but I still consider myself a christian."
Dev wrote:Yeah, you're sounding like Sam Harris, who I really like
I like Harris a lot. As I have said before, it's too bad that Dawkins has become the face of Atheism, because I think he can be a giant douche bag. I'd much prefer Harris or Krauss.
Dev wrote:Yeah, you're sounding like Sam Harris, who I really like
I like Harris a lot. As I have said before, it's too bad that Dawkins has become the face of Atheism, because I think he can be a giant douche bag. I'd much prefer Harris or Krauss.
I highly recommend "waking up". excellent book. on the other hand, harris's book "free will" left no impression on me, maybe just because I had heard it all.
Dev wrote:Yeah, you're sounding like Sam Harris, who I really like
I like Harris a lot. As I have said before, it's too bad that Dawkins has become the face of Atheism, because I think he can be a giant douche bag. I'd much prefer Harris or Krauss.
I highly recommend "waking up". excellent book. on the other hand, harris's book "free will" left no impression on me, maybe just because I had heard it all.
BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.
I try to start by properly quantifying everything as what it is. So, if we are talking about right and wrong for human beings, we first need to understand what a human being really is, and anything that factors into their behaviour or "choice". I guess you might say all ethical or moral deliberations are a matter of context?
which as I read more of the thread seems to be what you take Sartre's position to be. What exactly have you read by him?
LV sounds like a Sartre guy. I've read No Exit, and I think a little bit of Nausea. Mostly second hand lectures.
BurtReynolds wrote:Can I ask where the board's atheists derive their morals? For all practical purposes, I'm an atheist too, but I'm under no delusions that my morals are anything more than an illusion and probably rooted in old christian values and self preservation. Just curious to hear how others would explain theirs.
I'm pretty much a Golden Rule type guy. I try not to do bad things because I think of how awful it would be if such a bad thing happened to me. Nothing very supernatural involved in that.
thing is the golden rule only tells you what not to do. it doesn't tell you what to do.
You're thinking of the Silver Rule.
lol, right. but still the golden rule is not comprehensive, how are we to know how we should best be treated?
The obvious corollary to that is that I'd like to have good things happen to me, so I try to do similar good things for others.
Rangi Guy wrote:And that's cool - I'm not here to try and convince you should believe what I believe. Was just trying to point out that as a Christian I'm not actually cherry picking what I believe so much as following those statements
But aren't you kind of cherry-picking by choosing that as the basis of your faith and ignoring everything else in the Bible?
Not ignoring it - believing that Jesus was God in human form - his words just kind of superseded the earlier stuff handed down before. Except for maybe the Sabbath one - all the other 10 commandments would be kept by following the original post. I can't say I'm any good at keeping them though, but I try. Truth is - I'm pretty awful person, just trying each day to be that little bit better
I'd be lying if I said that didn't sound like classic cherry-picking to me, but, hey, man - whatever helps you get through the day.
The way I see it, cherry picking is inevitable in every religious practice. I'm having a tough time thinking of one person that practices every single thing in a book (like the Bible or Quran), or every single thing a prophet proclaims (like the Pope or the LDS President). Furthermore, the history of religion has shown people to argue over those interpretations all the time, resulting in schisms and the like.
I don't think cherry picking is inherently a bad thing though, nor should it be automatically shamed. If people have their own interpretation to find peace with their own religious beliefs, I don't see anything inconsistent about that due to the inevitability I described earlier.
