Will he be a Hall of Famer?

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Sat January 10, 2015 10:25 pm

Big Ben has a decent shot. Eli is more iffy. Neither had the playoff stats Warner had. Seriously, look them up. He is arguably the greatest playoff QB of his era.

spike · Post by **spike** » Sat January 10, 2015 10:38 pm

they'll probably induct eli as a favor to peyton

Post by **Green Habit** » Sun January 11, 2015 1:25 am

BigRedLedbetter wrote:I just don't see hall of fame when I see Kurt Warner. Amazing rags to riches story....pretty much literally. But I can think of many guys who have been eligible for a long time who deserve it more. Guys like Tim Brown, Kevin Mawae, Jerry Kramer, Steve Atwater, Roger Craig (bit of a homer pick), Will Shields (not a homer pick....one of the best guards of all time), Mick Tingelhoff and Neil Smith are all more deserving.

Neil Smith is a homer pick too, isn't he?

Oh, and team Orpheus on this one.

BigRedLedbetter · Post by **BigRedLedbetter** » Sun January 11, 2015 1:28 am

Green Habit wrote:
BigRedLedbetter wrote:I just don't see hall of fame when I see Kurt Warner. Amazing rags to riches story....pretty much literally. But I can think of many guys who have been eligible for a long time who deserve it more. Guys like Tim Brown, Kevin Mawae, Jerry Kramer, Steve Atwater, Roger Craig (bit of a homer pick), Will Shields (not a homer pick....one of the best guards of all time), Mick Tingelhoff and Neil Smith are all more deserving.
Neil Smith is a homer pick too, isn't he?

Oh, and team Orpheus on this one.

Probably but Smith has a great resume.

Post by **Green Habit** » Sun January 11, 2015 1:31 am

BigRedLedbetter wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
BigRedLedbetter wrote:I just don't see hall of fame when I see Kurt Warner. Amazing rags to riches story....pretty much literally. But I can think of many guys who have been eligible for a long time who deserve it more. Guys like Tim Brown, Kevin Mawae, Jerry Kramer, Steve Atwater, Roger Craig (bit of a homer pick), Will Shields (not a homer pick....one of the best guards of all time), Mick Tingelhoff and Neil Smith are all more deserving.
Neil Smith is a homer pick too, isn't he?

Oh, and team Orpheus on this one.
Probably but Smith has a great resume.

Oh I agree, but I'm biased as well.

He would prove an interesting test case though, as he spent most of his career with the Chiefs but won two SBs with the Broncos--which team would he go in as?

I also think your list shows how stupid it is to have a yearly limit on inductees. The guy is either a HOFer or he isn't. Sometimes you just have a year where a lot of amazing guys retired at the same time.

BigRedLedbetter · Post by **BigRedLedbetter** » Sun January 11, 2015 1:39 am

Green Habit wrote:
BigRedLedbetter wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
BigRedLedbetter wrote:I just don't see hall of fame when I see Kurt Warner. Amazing rags to riches story....pretty much literally. But I can think of many guys who have been eligible for a long time who deserve it more. Guys like Tim Brown, Kevin Mawae, Jerry Kramer, Steve Atwater, Roger Craig (bit of a homer pick), Will Shields (not a homer pick....one of the best guards of all time), Mick Tingelhoff and Neil Smith are all more deserving.
Neil Smith is a homer pick too, isn't he?

Oh, and team Orpheus on this one.
Probably but Smith has a great resume.
Oh I agree, but I'm biased as well. He would prove an interesting test case though, as he spent most of his career with the Chiefs but won two SBs with the Broncos--which team would he go in as?

I also think your list shows how stupid it is to have a yearly limit on inductees. The guy is either a HOFer or he isn't. Sometimes you just have a year where a lot of amazing guys retired at the same time.

I met Neil Smith a few years ago. Cool guy. As a Bronco fan do you remember Kenny Walker?

It's mind blowing to me Tim Brown is not in the Hall of Fame. He is one of the 5 best WRs of all time.

Post by **Green Habit** » Sun January 11, 2015 1:43 am

BigRedLedbetter wrote:As a Bronco fan do you remember Kenny Walker?

Nope, he was just a little before the time when I really started paying attention to football rosters. I read a little bit of his story just now though and it sounds amazing.

MattA75 · Post by **MattA75** » Sun January 11, 2015 3:59 am

Orpheus wrote:This was largely due to a broken finger and then a broken hand, which pretty much any QB will struggle with. The Martz system was notorious for getting players hurt due to taking big hits. Also being undrafted means a team will be more willing to move on from you...more on that in a sec.

No, he was 0-3 with 1 TD and 7 picks and broke his finger in the middle of the fourth game of 2002. So he was sucking without the broken finger. In 2003 he fumbled six times in the opening game and was replaced. He broke his hand in December of 2002, so if he's still using a "broken hand" as an excuse for why he sucked in September of 2003, there's something seriously wrong there.

Orpheus wrote:He did lose his job to Matt Leinart, who was terrible, and he would often have to bail out in relief appearances. There are several games where they pulled Leinart/he got hurt and Warner came in and almost won or did win the game. Leinart is recognized now as a terrible QB who never should have been a 1st round pick, but we all know that 1st round picks get many more chances than undrafted players (just look at guys like Vernon Gholston and Darius Heyward-Bey). Warner should be penalized for the Cardinals FO drafting a horrible QB too early and then giving him too many chances? Would anyone ever argue that Leinart was even in the same league as Warner as a player? I don't think so.

Leinart was terrible, but Warner never did "bail him out" in relief appearances...the only appearance Warner made after he lost his job was in week 16 when Leinart got hurt in the second quarter. Warner played the rest of that game and then played well in week 17 with Leinart hurt. One game is not several, and Leinart was never pulled for performance (though admittedly, based on the game logs, he probably should have been once or twice). No one's arguing Matt Leinart is in the same league as Kurt Warner, in fact just the opposite. But Leinart was a rookie, so how is that "too many chances" when they allowed him to play the majority of one season? If Kurt Warner was playing well, Kurt Warner would've remained the starter. If anyone thought Kurt Warner was capable of being the guy he was in St Louis, he would've been starting somewhere. Everyone thought Kurt Warner was done and was nothing more than a serviceable starter or backup at that point.

Orpheus wrote:Three more awesome seasons where he and the offense were pretty much the whole reason the team had success. The Cardinals SB team is one of the worst to ever make it to the big game in Football Outsiders ratings, and the next season he outplayed Aaron fucking Rodgers in a game in which he threw more TDs than incompletions. His season/career was ended by a Saints team that was found to be actively attempting to injure other players. He was beaten to shit and still made a valiant effort in that game, much as he did his entire career.

Oh cry me a river with that "actively attempting to injure other players" BS...as if that hasn't been the attitude in the league for the better part of its existence...

Orpheus wrote:Once again, six "good" seasons is a bit of a massive understatement.

fine...4 or 5 great seasons and 1 or 2 very good seasons...if your ratio of positive seasons to negative seasons is basically a +1 for your career, you don't belong in the hall of fame

Orpheus wrote:We are incredibly spoiled by QB play in this era. Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger will all go down as some of the greatest players to ever play the position. Not having your career arc be as good as those guys is entirely normal as they are stratospheric talents. They are all outliers--not the norm.

And right there, you make my argument for me...the hall of fame SHOULD be for stratospheric talents who are outliers and not the norm...so if you aren't as good as those guys, you shouldn't be in

MattA75 · Post by **MattA75** » Sun January 11, 2015 4:02 am

Orpheus wrote:Big Ben has a decent shot. Eli is more iffy. Neither had the playoff stats Warner had. Seriously, look them up. He is arguably the greatest playoff QB of his era.

Roethlisberger is almost certainly in based on how writers view him, and Eli, while I don't think should be in, almost certainly should get in if Warner does...

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Sun January 11, 2015 4:57 am

Leinart was pulled for Warner twice in 2007, against the Ravens and Steelers. Not several but not only once like you said.

You should read that article, the guy makes the case much better than I can. Really what it comes down to for me is that playoff success and the "story of the NFL aspect." Warner took two teams to the SB (extremely rare), was generally incredible in the postseason and like I said, if he's not in the Hall of Fame, the "Fame" aspect is essentially meaningless.

MattA75 · Post by **MattA75** » Sun January 11, 2015 1:27 pm

Orpheus wrote:Leinart was pulled for Warner twice in 2007, against the Ravens and Steelers. Not several but not only once like you said.

You should read that article, the guy makes the case much better than I can. Really what it comes down to for me is that playoff success and the "story of the NFL aspect." Warner took two teams to the SB (extremely rare), was generally incredible in the postseason and like I said, if he's not in the Hall of Fame, the "Fame" aspect is essentially meaningless.

My biggest issue with the article you posted is it lists a gigantic amount of evidence against him (moreso than I did, and likely more than you could list against the majority of HOF talents) and then they just blow it off one by one with excuses

Coach · Post by **Coach** » Sun January 11, 2015 2:10 pm

Oh man, there's no doubt in my mind that Big Ben is in. The "eye ball" test alone is enough for me.

E.H. Ruddock · Post by **E.H. Ruddock** » Sun February 01, 2015 3:27 am

Good to see Tim Brown get in

MattA75 · Post by **MattA75** » Sun February 01, 2015 2:49 pm

Jerome Bettis, Hall of Famer

Post by **Bammer** » Sun February 01, 2015 4:00 pm

Marshawn Lynch: In or Out?

Let's say he has 3 more very good seasons and Seahawks win today.

E.H. Ruddock · Post by **E.H. Ruddock** » Sun February 01, 2015 4:31 pm

Wish John Lynch would have gotten the nod.

BigRedLedbetter · Sun February 01, 2015 5:13 pm

Fuck yes Will Shields!

Orpheus · Post by **Orpheus** » Sun February 01, 2015 9:18 pm

MattA75 wrote:Jerome Bettis, Hall of Famer

Now this we totally agree on.

Post by **Green Habit** » Mon February 02, 2015 5:03 pm

Wow, this class is a real kick in the nuts to Broncos fans. Not only does Bettis get in over TD, but a Raider, Chief, and Charger were all part of the class as well. Ouch.

nyquillyn · Post by **nyquillyn** » Mon February 02, 2015 5:10 pm

Who did Kevin Greene piss off?

160 sacks, third all-time. 60 more than Haley. LOL.

Red Mosquito

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