Alex Jones, Food Babe, AntiVax and other such Woo

[nyquillyn]

I'm not AntiVaxx or AntiGMO. Completely the opposite, actually. The one concern my wife has (she has a masters in Genetics) is that we take special care not to lose the older, "outdated" versions of crops in case a nasty bug/disease comes along and starts wiping out the genetically modified ones. Apparently we were fairly careless about this in the past.

Also, we are not against antibiotics, but we do limit them. Our kids have to be REALLY sick to get them. My sister and several of our friends just pump their kids full of antibiotics at the drop of a hat and now every little thing gets them sick. Their immune systems are shit.

[Green Habit]

I'm not AntiVaxx or AntiGMO. Completely the opposite, actually. The one concern my wife has (she has a masters in Genetics) is that we take special care not to lose the older, "outdated" versions of crops in case a nasty bug/disease comes along and starts wiping out the genetically modified ones. Apparently we were fairly careless about this in the past.

Also, we are not against antibiotics, but we do limit them. Our kids have to be REALLY sick to get them. My sister and several of our friends just pump their kids full of antibiotics at the drop of a hat and now every little thing gets them sick. Their immune systems are shit.

This assumes that GM crops will always be weaker against a nasty bug/disease. There's effort being made to specifically protect against that very thing.

I actually do agree you with having concerns on antibiotics, though.

[nyquillyn]

I'm not AntiVaxx or AntiGMO. Completely the opposite, actually. The one concern my wife has (she has a masters in Genetics) is that we take special care not to lose the older, "outdated" versions of crops in case a nasty bug/disease comes along and starts wiping out the genetically modified ones. Apparently we were fairly careless about this in the past.

Also, we are not against antibiotics, but we do limit them. Our kids have to be REALLY sick to get them. My sister and several of our friends just pump their kids full of antibiotics at the drop of a hat and now every little thing gets them sick. Their immune systems are shit.

This assumes that GM crops will always be weaker against a nasty bug/disease. There's effort being made to specifically protect against that very thing.

I actually do agree you with having concerns on antibiotics, though.

Ummmm... that's not my point at all. GM crops are basically "stronger" in every way and I doubt even most antiGMO people would debate that. I think the point is we don't want to lose the "original" as the blueprint to build upon. It's basically preserving history.

[Green Habit]

I'm not AntiVaxx or AntiGMO. Completely the opposite, actually. The one concern my wife has (she has a masters in Genetics) is that we take special care not to lose the older, "outdated" versions of crops in case a nasty bug/disease comes along and starts wiping out the genetically modified ones. Apparently we were fairly careless about this in the past.

Also, we are not against antibiotics, but we do limit them. Our kids have to be REALLY sick to get them. My sister and several of our friends just pump their kids full of antibiotics at the drop of a hat and now every little thing gets them sick. Their immune systems are shit.

This assumes that GM crops will always be weaker against a nasty bug/disease. There's effort being made to specifically protect against that very thing.

I actually do agree you with having concerns on antibiotics, though.

Ummmm... that's not my point at all. GM crops are basically "stronger" in every way and I doubt even most antiGMO people would debate that. I think the point is we don't want to lose the "original" as the blueprint to build upon. It's basically preserving history.

That's fair enough to have as much archived as possible, so to speak. Though I wonder what exactly would be called the "original" blueprint. Humans have been artificially selecting species for centuries with fewer technological tools, and then there's natural selection at play too. I guess there may be a bit of "it's evolution, baby" in the system.

[vegman]

I'm not AntiVaxx or AntiGMO. Completely the opposite, actually. The one concern my wife has (she has a masters in Genetics) is that we take special care not to lose the older, "outdated" versions of crops in case a nasty bug/disease comes along and starts wiping out the genetically modified ones. Apparently we were fairly careless about this in the past.

Also, we are not against antibiotics, but we do limit them. Our kids have to be REALLY sick to get them. My sister and several of our friends just pump their kids full of antibiotics at the drop of a hat and now every little thing gets them sick. Their immune systems are shit.

You're smart to limit the antibiotics. For the longest time they were prescribed whenever a kid was sick, viral or bacterial source, and they are specifically for bacterial infections. It sucks to see your kid sick but the majority of everyday sicknesses tend to be viral.

[Jorge]

Simplicity back I want no further part

[simple schoolboy]

I see Chris Christie is getting bashed a lot for this today, but unfortunately I think he's disturbingly closer to the mainstream politicians than we may want to admit. (See Obama and McCain in 2008, for example.) I can't think of many (if any) politicians that have the fortitude to advocate the optimal policy: that there should be no exemptions for vaccines at all.

I'm not sure that no exemption would pass muster on first amendment grounds. Perhaps no exemption for those attending public school (with the hope that those attending private school would follow suit). If Christian Scientists and the Amish and others with deeply held religious beliefs are the only ones that have an excuse to avoid immunization, herd immunity is hardly impacted. If the criteria for immunization abstention is equivalent to conscientious objector status, the burden of proof requirement brings down the number of applicable folks to at most a couple of percent.

Employment Division v. Smith would lead me to believe that such a law would be constitutional. And on practical grounds, infectious diseases don't really care what religion you are. If there were enough Christian Scientists and/or Amish such that their percentage was greater than the herd immunity allowance, it would be compromised. We need to reserve that slim allowance for people who have a real, medical issue (such as those with deficient immune systems). That's why it's so critical that everyone participates, regardless of beliefs. And I'll be honest: I find the whole concept of only allowing religious exemptions to otherwise neutral laws to be deeply offensive. Your conscientious objector example would at least avoid that, even though it would also allow more exemptions.

I appreciate your concern about the religious exemption. 'Deeply held beliefs' would apply as well, but its probably harder to demonstrate that compared to religious affiliation. I was wrong to presume that those with deeply held beliefs against vaccinations but without any religious basis exist. I just kind of figured those people are assholes that don't deserve consideration in public policy (ie not so deeply held beliefs) or are so inconsequential in numbers as to not factor in to this discussion.

Beyond all that, how would we go about mandating vaccines? I have suggested tying in vaccine compliance with public services (schools, etc.). Are there more aggressive approaches that you thing may work?

[Green Habit]

Beyond all that, how would we go about mandating vaccines? I have suggested tying in vaccine compliance with public services (schools, etc.). Are there more aggressive approaches that you thing may work?

Well, we already do that with public schools, but you've got to get rid of the exemptions to make it effective. Private entities that do business with kids could help out by making vaccinations a condition of membership (and most likely do anyway as it's in their interest). It's probably not practical to make it a crime or get CPS involved. Maybe a penalty for tax on non-vaccinated kids? We've already entered the realm of taxing people's bodies with the health insurance mandate. Of course, affluent people like Jenny McCarthy can mitigate all of this...

[Green Habit]

creationism : intelligent design :: anti-vaccine : vaccine delaying

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/6/7988715/the ... -vaccinate

[E.H. Ruddock]

creationism : intelligent design :: anti-vaccine : vaccine delaying

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/6/7988715/the ... -vaccinate

I fear that article might anger me so I'm not going to read it.

[B]

creationism : intelligent design :: anti-vaccine : vaccine delaying

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/6/7988715/the ... -vaccinate

I fear that article might anger me so I'm not going to read it.

Might anger you? Do you know what I do for a living?

[Green Habit]

creationism : intelligent design :: anti-vaccine : vaccine delaying

http://www.vox.com/2015/2/6/7988715/the ... -vaccinate

I fear that article might anger me so I'm not going to read it.

Might anger you? Do you know what I do for a living?

You've been RM's main good guy on this front for a long time.

http://archive.theskyiscrape.com/viewto ... 66#p458266

[B]

Vaccinate 'til I die, baby!

[Rangi Guy]

[Rangi Guy]

[Rangi Guy]

Do we feel the same way about people who don't get the flu jab as we do about AntiVaxers?
I've been eligible for the flu shot for free for the past few years, but never had it....

[B]

Do we feel the same way about people who don't get the flu jab as we do about AntiVaxers?
I've been eligible for the flu shot for free for the past few years, but never had it....

If they don't get a flu shot because it's dangerous or it makes them sick. Yes, I feel the same way about them, because that's stupid and wrong.

If they don't get it because they're lazy, busy, irresponsible, or can't go to the trouble for a less-effective vaccine, I can live with that. I don't know why. Maybe because even with 100% vaccination rate, that vaccine can't create herd immunity. For some people it's a big bother for little payback. I can understand that.

[Green Habit]

Do we feel the same way about people who don't get the flu jab as we do about AntiVaxers?
I've been eligible for the flu shot for free for the past few years, but never had it....

If they don't get a flu shot because it's dangerous or it makes them sick. Yes, I feel the same way about them, because that's stupid and wrong.

If they don't get it because they're lazy, busy, irresponsible, or can't go to the trouble for a less-effective vaccine, I can live with that. I don't know why. Maybe because even with 100% vaccination rate, that vaccine can't create herd immunity. For some people it's a big bother for little payback. I can understand that.

Bingo. It's defensible to say the flu shot isn't as critical to the well-being of society as other vaccines. It's not defensible to blurt out TOXINZZZZZ without credible evidence.

[E.H. Ruddock]

TOXINZZZZZ

Wes C. Addle post

[Green Habit]

TOXINZZZZZ

Wes C. Addle post

I pulled that from earlier in this thread.