2013 NFL Draft

[TheDapperGent]

It's a way to gauge knowledge and intelligence. To see who is studious and who isn't. For the amount of money teams invest in these guys I'd want to know these things.

[Self]

We're talking about the same Tavon that scored a 7 on the Wonderlic, right?

Don't know if you're being serious or not, but the wonderlic has no positive correlation for performance except for TEs and has a NEGATIVE correlation for DBs. Basically, it's a way to embarrass young black men for no reason.

Uh huh. I thought this was pretty cool of PFT.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20 ... -business/

[Green Habit]

We're talking about the same Tavon that scored a 7 on the Wonderlic, right?

Don't know if you're being serious or not, but the wonderlic has no positive correlation for performance except for TEs and has a NEGATIVE correlation for DBs. Basically, it's a way to embarrass young black men for no reason.

Also, 4/5 and I scoffed at the fact that Vontae Davis somehow got a 33.

[Orpheus]

It's a way to gauge knowledge and intelligence. To see who is studious and who isn't. For the amount of money teams invest in these guys I'd want to know these things.

But it's been found to have virtually no relation to the ability to play football, and like I said in the case of DBs, putting stock in a high wonderlic score could actually land you a worse player than if you hadn't. I'd maybe be ok with QBs taking it, but it's basically useless for everyone else. IMO it's a way for us to take young black men who are about to earn millions of dollars down a peg for no reason. "Yeah he's gonna go in the top ten, but look at how fucking stupid he is!" It's pointless.

[TheDapperGent]

Intelligence plays a huge factor in learning schemes, choices one may make in their personal life. Perhaps if these scores were kept private instead of being made public it would be a better system. It's got nothing to do with race though man. Unless you are saying that black men are inherently dumb.

[Self]

Intelligence plays a huge factor in learning schemes

What Nate is trying to say is, you're wrong. There is no correlation between scores and performance.

Also, he's black.

[Green Habit]

Intelligence plays a huge factor in learning schemes, choices one may make in their personal life.

People process intelligence in different ways, though. I know I can use my intelligence to execute certain tasks very well (programming code, conjuring up trivial what-if scenarios), but I could never use it properly to become a good competitive athlete. I don't see how something as simple as the Wonderlic can emcompass so many dimensions of intelligence.

However, I somewhat share your skepticism of Nate's racist angle, and I wouldn't mind if he fleshes it out more. I could see it with coaches (as the whole Rooney Rule debate shows), but not as much with players.

EDIT: I love the striking contrasts of how wordy my post was compared to Self's, when we largely said the same thing.

[TheDapperGent]

Intelligence plays a huge factor in learning schemes

What Nate is trying to say is, you're wrong. There is no correlation between scores and performance.

Also, he's black.

Yeah, I'm sure the NFL is trying to single out it's black players. Perhaps they shouldn't publish the scores. I really have no interest in them. If I were an owner though I'd have to look at the players as investments and gauging intelligence is certainly one side of the coin. The other side is physicality. Education is important and some of these kids should try a little harder.

But yeah, I'm wrong.

[Orpheus]

I'm not saying that; that's what the public response often is. Others use these scores to imply that and basically publicly embarrass these guys. I thought I made it pretty clear I'm on the players side with this one. If I see any evidence that wonderlic scores actually do the things you're implying, I might change my mind, but the actual evidence implies otherwise. Have you seen the actual test? It has nothing to do with football or character. I could make a good score on it, but I'd be a pretty shit NFL player.

[epilogue]

We're talking about the same Tavon that scored a 7 on the Wonderlic, right?

Don't know if you're being serious or not, but the wonderlic has no positive correlation for performance except for TEs and has a NEGATIVE correlation for DBs. Basically, it's a way to embarrass young black men for no reason.

Yeah, I meant it tongue-in-cheek. I was poking fun at some Chiefs fans that I know.

[Self]

EDIT: I love the striking contrasts of how wordy my post was compared to Self's, when we largely said the same thing.

You would kill me on the Wonderlic. But, in single coverage, you'd be Moss'd.

[epilogue]

EDIT: I love the striking contrasts of how wordy my post was compared to Self's, when we largely said the same thing.

You would kill me on the Wonderlic. But, in single coverage, you'd be Moss'd.

[Green Habit]

EDIT: I love the striking contrasts of how wordy my post was compared to Self's, when we largely said the same thing.

You would kill me on the Wonderlic. But, in single coverage, you'd be Moss'd.

Somewhere in the archives back in 2006 or so, someone saw a picture of me in an RM meetup and said he wanted to draft me as a tight end for his fantasy team. I chuckled at that a bit, knowing that in real life I would get absolutely pancaked when a DB bumps me at the line of scrimmage.

[Orpheus]

However, I somewhat share your skepticism of Nate's racist angle, and I wouldn't mind if he fleshes it out more. I could see it with coaches (as the whole Rooney Rule debate shows), but not as much with players.

The situation with Morris Claiborne last year comes to mind. Sure top ten pick, no character issues, sterling combine, great tape. Comes out that he scored a 6 on the wonderlic and for two weeks you hear "sure he's a great player, but is he a dumbass?" Gets drafted top ten anyway, is probably going to turn into a great player, so what was the point? Everyone calling Morris Claiborne a dumbass on national TV for two weeks? I just think it's pointless.

[Green Habit]

The situation with Morris Claiborne last year comes to mind. Sure top ten pick, no character issues, sterling combine, great tape. Comes out that he scored a 6 on the wonderlic and for two weeks you hear "sure he's a great player, but is he a dumbass?" Gets drafted top ten anyway, is probably going to turn into a great player, so what was the point? Everyone calling Morris Claiborne a dumbass on national TV for two weeks? I just think it's pointless.

I agree with everything you said here. I don't see what the race angle is, though--unless it's one of those dog whistle things that as an ignorant Western American I just don't hear.

[TheDapperGent]

There is no race angle with the tests. Some people just love to wedge one in anywhere they can.

[Orpheus]

The situation with Morris Claiborne last year comes to mind. Sure top ten pick, no character issues, sterling combine, great tape. Comes out that he scored a 6 on the wonderlic and for two weeks you hear "sure he's a great player, but is he a dumbass?" Gets drafted top ten anyway, is probably going to turn into a great player, so what was the point? Everyone calling Morris Claiborne a dumbass on national TV for two weeks? I just think it's pointless.

I agree with everything you said here. I don't see what the race angle is, though--unless it's one of those dog whistle things that as an ignorant Western American I just don't hear.

It's always a black player. It was horrible with Vince Young (going way beyond the wonderlic) and white players are never really subject to same type of scrutiny. FWIW, Dan Marino also had a pretty shitty wonderlic score.

[epilogue]

I've never paid any attention to Wonderlic.

[TheDapperGent]

I've never paid any attention to Wonderlic.

Me neither. But I think it is in the right of a team or owner to have some kind of intelligence test to gauge....intelligence.

[Orpheus]

They have those, they're called interviews. A typical wonderlic question is "STALE is to STEAL as BREAD is to _________." Wouldn't a better question be "what is the first responsibility of a slot corner in cover 3: curl, flat, or seam?" I guarantee you a good CB will know that, and it actually pertains to football.

Sorry if I'm coming across as adversarial. Just food for thought.