Same-Sex Marriage

[broken iris]

This is why I still have a bit of a soft spot for the notion that government shouldn't be encouraging a catch-all package of dozens of rights that we call civil marriage, and that it would be more prudent for people to come to contractual agreements as they best see fit in forming a household. Even in that scenario, disallowing such contractual agreements due to one's sex or sexuality is pretty frankly wrong and contrary to the Constitution.

Exactly this. Consenting legal adults in entering into a contractual agreement should be the only definition of marriage that government cares about.

[Green Habit]

Utah decided to skip the en banc step at the Tenth Circuit, which certainly speeds things up. Expect the Court to either grant or deny cert at the Long Conference in the very end of September. If it grants cert, oral argument will probably be set before 2014 is out in early 2015, and a decision on or before June 2015. If it denies cert, SSM becomes legal in all of the states in the Tenth Circuit: Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, New Mexico, Kansas, and Oklahoma.

EDIT: I forgot that the Court already has about 40 cases queued up for the 2014-15 term. That probably pushes oral argument to around February or March of 2015.

Wow...SCOTUS just did what I bolded, and denied cert on every single SSM case. This means that SSM is now immediately legal in the following states (the circuit that they are in is in parentheses):
--Virginia (4th)
--Wisconsin (7th)
--Indiana (7th)
--Utah (10th)
--Oklahoma (10th)

In addition, this means that any state in the 4th, 7th, or 10th Circuits now has binding precedent to do the same. This could effectively legalize SSM in the following states (if it hasn't already):
--Maryland (4th)
--West Virginia (4th)
--North Carolina (4th)
--South Carolina (4th)
--Illinois (7th)
--Kansas (10th)
--Wyoming (10th)
--Colorado (10th)
--New Mexico (10th)

I'm surprised that the Court didn't take a case, and even more surprised that Scalia didn't dissent from denial of cert. My guess is that one justice (probably Roberts) saw the writing on the wall and decided to wash SCOTUS clean of making the decision on their own, leaving it to the lower courts.

This could also mean that if any other circuit court follows suit, SCOTUS might not grant stays, meaning that such a ruling would open things up quickly. For example, Idaho's SSM ban is being deliberated right now in the 9th Circuit after an oral argument a month ago. If that goes down, that's quickly going to implement other 9th Circuit states like Arizona, Alaska, Montana, etc.

tl;dr: SCOTUS just make a sweeping move in favor of SSM by doing practically nothing.

[Green Habit]

For example, Idaho's SSM ban is being deliberated right now in the 9th Circuit after an oral argument a month ago. If that goes down, that's quickly going to implement other 9th Circuit states like Arizona, Alaska, Montana, etc.

tl;dr: SCOTUS just make a sweeping move in favor of SSM by doing practically nothing.

Well that was quick. Down go bans here and Nevada (meaning Arizona, Alaska, and Montana are right behind):

http://media.idahostatesman.com/smedia/ ... .So.36.pdf

I'm really surprised about the lack of public reaction going on right now--just the nature of what SCOTUS did, I guess. But still, 16 states and counting just had their SSM bans on the verge of being wiped out in a matter of two days.

[B]

AND our Democratic Senator has an 80% chance of victory on fivethirtyeight!

[Green Habit]

Uh oh, the Sixth Circuit done fucked up.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volo ... iage-bans/

By a 2-1 vote, with Judge Jeffrey Sutton writing the opinion, the Sixth Circuit has upheld state prohibitions on same-sex marriages in the states of Ohio, Kentucky, Michigan, and Tennessee. Given that four other circuits have come out the other way, and that same-sex marriages are proceeding in 32 states, this is the case that produces the circuit split likely to be resolved by the Supreme Court. If petitions for certiorari are filed soon, as I expect they would be, we could still be on track for argument this Term and decision by the end of June 2015. I will have more to say when I’ve digested the opinion.

The opinion is available here.

The plaintiffs could ask for an en banc hearing that reverses this, but if it doesn't, SCOTUS won't be able to duck any longer.

[@SkitchP]

Did they fuck up, or intentionally decide to force the SC hand?

[Chris_H_2]

Did they fuck up, or intentionally decide to force the SC hand?

Oh Skitch

[B]

AND our Democratic Senator has an 80% chance of victory on fivethirtyeight!

This didn't go so well for us.

[B]

Can we talk about how crappy this letter is?

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/17/dea ... e-hurting/

Gay community, I am your daughter. My mom raised me with her same-sex partner back in the ’80s and ’90s. She and my dad were married for a little while. She knew she was gay before they got married, but things were different back then. That’s how I got here. It was complicated as you can imagine. She left him when I was two or three because she wanted a chance to be happy with someone she really loved: a woman.

My dad wasn’t a great guy, and after she left him he didn’t bother coming around anymore.

Do you remember that book, “Heather Has Two Mommies”? That was my life. My mom, her partner, and I lived in a cozy little house in the ‘burbs of a very liberal and open-minded area. Her partner treated me as if I was her own daughter. Along with my mom’s partner, I also inherited her tight-knit community of gay and lesbian friends. Or maybe they inherited me?

Either way, I still feel like gay people are my people. I’ve learned so much from you. You taught me how to be brave, especially when it is hard. You taught me empathy. You taught me how to listen. And how to dance. You taught me not be afraid of things that are different. And you taught me how to stand up for myself, even if that means I stand alone.

I’m writing to you because I’m letting myself out of the closet: I don’t support gay marriage. But it might not be for the reasons that you think.

Children Need a Mother and Father

It’s not because you’re gay. I love you, so much. It’s because of the nature of the same-sex relationship itself.

Growing up, and even into my 20s, I supported and advocated for gay marriage. It’s only with some time and distance from my childhood that I’m able to reflect on my experiences and recognize the long-term consequences that same-sex parenting had on me. And it’s only now, as I watch my children loving and being loved by their father each day, that I can see the beauty and wisdom in traditional marriage and parenting.

Same-sex marriage and parenting withholds either a mother or father from a child while telling him or her that it doesn’t matter. That it’s all the same. But it’s not. A lot of us, a lot of your kids, are hurting. My father’s absence created a huge hole in me, and I ached every day for a dad. I loved my mom’s partner, but another mom could never have replaced the father I lost.

Same-sex marriage didn't withhold her father from her. She said herself, "My dad wasn’t a great guy, and after she left him he didn’t bother coming around anymore." If her mom had been straight and married a man, she's still grow up without her shitty father in the picture.

I grew up surrounded by women who said they didn’t need or want a man. Yet, as a little girl, I so desperately wanted a daddy. It is a strange and confusing thing to walk around with this deep-down unquenchable ache for a father, for a man, in a community that says that men are unnecessary. There were times I felt so angry with my dad for not being there for me, and then times I felt angry with myself for even wanting a father to begin with. There are parts of me that still grieve over that loss today.

Her mothers were pissed and discriminatory. If her mother was straight, would she have hated the girl's father any less? Would she have shared that bitterness any less?

I’m not saying that you can’t be good parents. You can. I had one of the best. I’m also not saying that being raised by straight parents means everything will turn out okay. We know there are so many different ways that the family unit can break down and cause kids to suffer: divorce, abandonment, infidelity, abuse, death, etc. But by and large, the best and most successful family structure is one in which kids are being raised by both their mother and father.

She's 2 for 5 on top ways kids can suffer, but it's same-sex marriage that ruined her life?

Why Can’t Gay People’s Kids Be Honest?
Gay marriage doesn’t just redefine marriage, but also parenting. It promotes and normalizes a family structure that necessarily denies us something precious and foundational. It denies us something we need and long for, while at the same time tells us that we don’t need what we naturally crave. That we will be okay. But we’re not. We’re hurting.

Kids of divorced parents are allowed to say, “Hey, mom and dad, I love you, but the divorce crushed me and has been so hard. It shattered my trust and made me feel like it was my fault. It is so hard living in two different houses.” Kids of adoption are allowed to say, “Hey, adoptive parents, I love you. But this is really hard for me. I suffer because my relationship with my first parents was broken. I’m confused and I miss them even though I’ve never met them.”

But children of same-sex parents haven’t been given the same voice. It’s not just me. There are so many of us. Many of us are too scared to speak up and tell you about our hurt and pain, because for whatever reason it feels like you’re not listening. That you don’t want to hear. If we say we are hurting because we were raised by same-sex parents, we are either ignored or labeled a hater.

That's a great message for gay parents to keep the lines of free conversation open. Maybe a "gay-marriage advocate" could deliver that message, but this girl quit and declared all families will be unhappy because mine was.

This isn’t about hate at all. I know you understand the pain of a label that doesn’t fit and the pain of a label that is used to malign or silence you. And I know that you really have been hated and that you really have been hurt. I was there, at the marches, when they held up signs that said, “God hates fags” and “AIDS cures homosexuality.” I cried and turned hot with anger right there in the street with you. But that’s not me. That’s not us.

I know this is a hard conversation. But we need to talk about it. If anyone can talk about hard things, it’s us. You taught me that.

Heather Barwick was raised by her mother and her mother's same-sex partner. She is a former gay-marriage advocate turned children's rights activist. She is a wife and mother of four rambunctious kids.

[LoathedVermin72]

jesus fucking christ

[B]

Me or her?

[LoathedVermin72]

her

[Green Habit]

I'm pretty certain I had a long debate with LittleWing on the old board about the "children need a mom and a dad" bullshit.

[B]

I'm pretty certain I had a long debate with LittleWing on the old board about the "children need a mom and a dad" bullshit.

Even i you assume that's true. Let's say you had good data that kids raised w/o a parent of each gender are more likely turn out better (and "more likely" is as good as you'll get, b/c tons of kids grow up in gay homes and turn out fine). Does that mean you pull kids out of single-family homes and put them into dual-sex foster families?

What if you have good data that African American kids are more likely to have poor indicators later in life? Do you take away all black babies and pass them onto white families?

Families are what they are. You can't judge what families is better than others with stereotypes.

[B]

Also, can gay people get married if they promise not to raise children? That's OK, right? We only need to take away the rights of people who can't raise their children correctly, right?

[Rob]

I was under the impression that the government doesn't see marriage as a right, and has no interest in a marriage that can't produce children (future tax payer), therefore no reason to recognize gay marriage - which is, of course, ridiculous.

[Green Habit]

I was under the impression that the government doesn't see marriage as a right, and has no interest in a marriage that can't produce children (future tax payer), therefore no reason to recognize gay marriage - which is, of course, ridiculous.

Well, that might be an important question down the road depending on how SCOTUS rules on this in June. It could simply say that bans on SSM violate the Equal Protection Clause--they'd make no comment on whether marriage is a fundamental right, just to say that if you do provide it, it has to be provided equally. But they could also invoke substantive due process and say it is a fundamental right, and that could have implications beyond just SSM.

[Biff Pocoroba]

From Politico:

The United States is moving toward “criminalization of Christianity” as a result of legalizing same-sex marriage, Mike Huckabee told a group of conservative pastors in a conference call organized by the Family Research Council.

“I think it’s fair to say that Christian convictions are under attack as never before,” Huckabee said Thursday, according to audio of the call obtained by Right Wing Watch, a project of the progressive advocacy group People for the American Way. “Not just in our lifetime, but ever before in the history of this great nation. We are moving rapidly toward the criminalization of Christianity.”


I know this just Huckabee pandering to his base but this is exactly the type of reasoning why I can't take the super social conservatives serious.

[simple schoolboy]

From Politico:

The United States is moving toward “criminalization of Christianity” as a result of legalizing same-sex marriage, Mike Huckabee told a group of conservative pastors in a conference call organized by the Family Research Council.

“I think it’s fair to say that Christian convictions are under attack as never before,” Huckabee said Thursday, according to audio of the call obtained by Right Wing Watch, a project of the progressive advocacy group People for the American Way. “Not just in our lifetime, but ever before in the history of this great nation. We are moving rapidly toward the criminalization of Christianity.”


I know this just Huckabee pandering to his base but this is exactly the type of reasoning why I can't take the super social conservatives serious.

Not to defend Huckabee, but if you are a socially conservative Christian right now, do you have inducement to give live and let live a try? They aren't nearly as persecuted as they think , but I can't really blame them for keeping the culture war alive.

[bada]

I suppose if someone is an asshole you cant really blame them for acting like one.