2015 NHL Franchise Tournament - FINALS, GAME 5 RESULTS!

[Mecca]

The Good, Not Great One

[@SkitchP]

lotta bias showing in this thread.

[Mecca]

lotta bias showing in this thread.

I have a hard time saying Mario is far enough above gretzky to say it with any confidence, but I liked his game better because he was more physical and played with 2 guys constantly draped over him without having to play with someone to fight his battles. Gretz was an amazing scorer, though.

[Mecca]

also, in prep for Skitch's unstoppable Oilers, these were the last 3 sims I did before feeling confident in Hasek

http://whatifsports.com/nhl/boxscore.as ... teamfee=-1
http://whatifsports.com/nhl/boxscore.as ... teamfee=-1
http://whatifsports.com/nhl/boxscore.as ... teamfee=-1

Im still taken aback by that 10 goal game. Don't care how great you are, nobody would hang 5 on 7 shots against Hasek maybe not even in his current shape.

[@SkitchP]

I was a bigger fan of Mario than Gretzky as well, but Gretzky was a better player. This town would argue that Howe was better than both of them, although i think that's all homerism.

[@SkitchP]

lol@ mecca saving sims

[numbers]

I was a bigger fan of Mario than Gretzky as well, but Gretzky was a better player. This town would argue that Howe was better than both of them, although i think that's all homerism.

Bobby Orr was better than all 3 of them.

[@SkitchP]

I was a bigger fan of Mario than Gretzky as well, but Gretzky was a better player. This town would argue that Howe was better than both of them, although i think that's all homerism.

Bobby Orr was better than all 3 of them.

Bobby Orr at his peak, sure. Bobby Orr also was only great for what 7 years? Longevity plays a role in your standing at some point, and (now this is also homerism) Id take 20 years of Nick Lidstrom over 7 years of Bobby Orr.

[numbers]

I was a bigger fan of Mario than Gretzky as well, but Gretzky was a better player. This town would argue that Howe was better than both of them, although i think that's all homerism.

Bobby Orr was better than all 3 of them.

Bobby Orr at his peak, sure. Bobby Orr also was only great for what 7 years? Longevity plays a role in your standing at some point, and (now this is also homerism) Id take 20 years of Nick Lidstrom over 7 years of Bobby Orr.

I'll give you the longevity argument, but Orr revolutionized the game with the way he played. That counts for something as well.

[@SkitchP]

I was a bigger fan of Mario than Gretzky as well, but Gretzky was a better player. This town would argue that Howe was better than both of them, although i think that's all homerism.

Bobby Orr was better than all 3 of them.

Bobby Orr at his peak, sure. Bobby Orr also was only great for what 7 years? Longevity plays a role in your standing at some point, and (now this is also homerism) Id take 20 years of Nick Lidstrom over 7 years of Bobby Orr.

I'll give you the longevity argument, but Orr revolutionized the game with the way he played. That counts for something as well.

No question about it.

[Mecca]

lol@ mecca saving sims

it keeps your last 3!

[philpritchard]

Bobby Orr was probably the most dominant player ever.

[Lament]

Bobby Orr is the only person who I wouldn't put up an argument against if someone said he was better than Lemieux.

Others have made the argument better than I have...

You could look purely at those numbers and say that “No, Mario Lemieux is not the greatest player of all-time”. However, that would be foolish, as Mario Lemieux only played in 915 games. Gretzky played in 1,487 games.

Now take a look at these stats and tell me Lemieux should not at least be grouped with Gretzky in the discussion for greatest of all-time.

- 2nd in points per game (Gretzky is 1st)*

- 2nd in goals per game (min. 500 games)(Gretzky is 4th)

- 2nd in assists per game (Gretzky is 1st)*

- 1st in goals per game in playoffs (Gretzky is 2nd)

Lemieux also had a higher power-play goals per game and short-handed goals per game. Go ahead and check, I’ll wait.

Take the stats I just presented to you and remember that Lemieux did it while injured. It’s been said that after his fourth year, Lemieux couldn’t even tie his own skates his back problems were so bad.

You also have to take in to account that Lemieux improved the players around him more than Gretzky did his. Take the two players that spent the majority of their time with Lemieux and Gretzky, Kevin Stevens and Jari Kurri.

In Jari Kurri’s 8 year stint alongside Wayne Gretzky he averaged an impressive 1.41 points per game. In the two seasons after he was separated from the Great One he still managed an excellent 1.27 points per game.

In Kevin Steven’s 4 years playing with Mario Lemieux he averaged 1.3 points per game. However, in the two years after playing with Lemieux he could only muster 0.68 points per game.

For those who are only casual fans of hockey, a close comparison might just be the great Jim Brown, another legend whose total statistics would have been higher if he had played more games.

* Lemieux was first in both of these statistics until his final full-season of his last comeback, when he was playing for a last place team pretty much just to keep the franchise from moving.

[Lament]

I wouldn't argue with someone who said that Gretzky had the greatest career of any hockey player ever. But that doesn't make him the greatest player ever. I'd give Lemieux and Orr the nod over him without hesitation.

[Thejambi]

Such disrespect for Mike Bossy.

[E.H. Ruddock]

Such disrespect for Mike Bossy.

right?

[Thejambi]

Such disrespect for Mike Bossy.

right?

Perhaps I have a soft spot for the ignored. The guy could score though. It is really too bad about his back, cant help but wonder what his career would have looked like.


FWIW I think Gretzky was light years ahead of Lemieux.

[philpritchard]

- 2nd in points per game (Gretzky is 1st)*

- 2nd in goals per game (min. 500 games)(Gretzky is 4th)

- 2nd in assists per game (Gretzky is 1st)*

- 1st in goals per game in playoffs (Gretzky is 2nd)

If this is meant to show how Lemieux is better, I'm not sure it does a very good job.

Lemieux also had a higher power-play goals per game and short-handed goals per game. Go ahead and check, I’ll wait.

So... there are a couple things that Lemieux was better at. I'm not really sure what that proves. That Gretzky was better even strength?

Take the stats I just presented to you and remember that Lemieux did it while injured. It’s been said that after his fourth year, Lemieux couldn’t even tie his own skates his back problems were so bad.

This is a perfectly fair argument and the one reason I think it's fair for people to say Lemieux was better.

You also have to take in to account that Lemieux improved the players around him more than Gretzky did his. Take the two players that spent the majority of their time with Lemieux and Gretzky, Kevin Stevens and Jari Kurri.

In Jari Kurri’s 8 year stint alongside Wayne Gretzky he averaged an impressive 1.41 points per game. In the two seasons after he was separated from the Great One he still managed an excellent 1.27 points per game.

In Kevin Steven’s 4 years playing with Mario Lemieux he averaged 1.3 points per game. However, in the two years after playing with Lemieux he could only muster 0.68 points per game.

This is complete bullshit. I could pick out a handful of players to make it in either direction. Glenn Anderson had 1.17 P/G with Gretzky and 0.84 P/G in Edmonton after Gretzky left. Bernie Nicholls had 1.11 P/G before Gretzky arrived in LA, 1.79 P/G when they played together, 0.98 P/G in his three years after leaving LA. In his 11 seasons with Pittsburgh, Jaromir Jagr averaged 1.34 P/G. He had 1.47 P/G in the four seasons Lemieux didn't play.

This one is a great case of having an opinion in mind and searching out stats that back it up.

[philpritchard]

And if you think Lemieux had injury problems, you may want to keep in mind that Bobby Orr's career was essentially over before he turned 27. He only played 36 games from that point on.

[Mecca]

Jagr owns, though