Will he be a Hall of Famer?

[MattA75]

Reading the earlier posts and on what planet is kurt warner not hall of fame worthy

He went from a grocery store or some shit to pitting up insane numbers and taking 2 of the shittiest franchises in pro sports to the superbowl.. winning it with one.. a rams team that was like 500-1 odds coming into the season

Also isn't it the pro football hof so his arena stats factor in??

True hall of famers don't need to factor in their arena league stats

They also don't have five years of suckitude in the middle of their prime, but I've made my points against Kurt Warner already in this thread

[Green Habit]

Let's talk this guy:



Before yesterday, I think his case was borderline. He's not on the groundbreaking level of Ditka, Winslow, Sharpe, or Gonzalez, but he has had a stellar enough career for at least consideration. But now he has a 4 game PED suspension hanging over his history. He did give an explanation, but I think this is a case where Gates needs to waive his right to confidentiality after he's retired so that his case for Canton can be made with the most accurate information possible.

[MattA75]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

[@SkitchP]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

What other PED guys are in though?

[Norah]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

What other PED guys are in though?

Frank Thomas

[TBAMTS]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

What other PED guys are in though?

Frank Thomas

He was never implicated.

[MattA75]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

What other PED guys are in though?

I'd counter with what other PED guys have 3 World Series championships and a World Series MVP to go along with all of their numbers? And I get that you can say that Ortiz had some great teams around him, but they absolutely do not win in 2004 or 2013 without him doing what he did in those playoffs.

Also, people in this thread expect Bagwell and Piazza to get in...

[philpritchard]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

What other PED guys are in though?

I'd counter with what other PED guys have 3 World Series championships and a World Series MVP to go along with all of their numbers? And I get that you can say that Ortiz had some great teams around him, but they absolutely do not win in 2004 or 2013 without him doing what he did in those playoffs.

Also, people in this thread expect Bagwell and Piazza to get in...

Bagwell and Piazza were both far superior players. As for Ortiz, let's wait until Edgar Martinez gets in to have that conversation.

[MattA75]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

What other PED guys are in though?

I'd counter with what other PED guys have 3 World Series championships and a World Series MVP to go along with all of their numbers? And I get that you can say that Ortiz had some great teams around him, but they absolutely do not win in 2004 or 2013 without him doing what he did in those playoffs.

Also, people in this thread expect Bagwell and Piazza to get in...

Bagwell and Piazza were both far superior players. As for Ortiz, let's wait until Edgar Martinez gets in to have that conversation.

Actually, statistically, Bagwell, Piazza and Ortiz are virtually identical, but Ortiz' playoff stats dwarf the other two in every way imaginable, which should more than make up for the fact that Ortiz is "just a DH."

And you're preaching to the choir about Edgar...the idea that DH has been a position for 40+ years and HOF voters still can't get over it is ridiculous

[philpritchard]

Curious how people feel about Ortiz...being a Red Sox fan, I'm biased, but between his numbers and his playoff accomplishments, I don't see how he doesn't get in...

What other PED guys are in though?

I'd counter with what other PED guys have 3 World Series championships and a World Series MVP to go along with all of their numbers? And I get that you can say that Ortiz had some great teams around him, but they absolutely do not win in 2004 or 2013 without him doing what he did in those playoffs.

Also, people in this thread expect Bagwell and Piazza to get in...

Bagwell and Piazza were both far superior players. As for Ortiz, let's wait until Edgar Martinez gets in to have that conversation.

Actually, statistically, Bagwell, Piazza and Ortiz are virtually identical, but Ortiz' playoff stats dwarf the other two in every way imaginable, which should more than make up for the fact that Ortiz is "just a DH."

And you're preaching to the choir about Edgar...the idea that DH has been a position for 40+ years and HOF voters still can't get over it is ridiculous

There should definitely be some stock put in Ortiz's playoff performance since it's been amazing most of the time, but I have a hard time weighting 350 playoff plate appearances too heavily against nearly 10,000 in the regular season. And, for the record, I would put literally zero stock in the number of championships a player has. How the hell did we decide that team success should be a factor in determining an individual honour? If Ortiz had never left Minnesota, would he still be a Hall of Famer?

Anyway, Ortiz's career regular season stats do not even compare with Bagwell. Bagwell doesn't get a lot of credit because of the era in which he played, but he's an all-time great offensive player. His 149 wRC+ is 31st all-time, and his 80.2 fWAR is 35th, in the Dimaggio/Clemente range. Compare that to Ortiz's 138 wRC+ (85th) and 45.9 fWAR (213th, tied with another Red Sox legend, JD Drew!) . So if you take Ortiz's career, make him about 10% better as a hitter, make him an average baserunner instead of one of the worst ever, then make him a very good defensive first baseman instead of a no-defense DH, then you have yourself a Jeff Bagwell!

Offensively, Piazza and Ortiz actually are pretty similar, with Piazza coming out slightly ahead. But then again, Frank Thomas, Edgar Martinez, Jim Thome and Jason Giambi are the four full-time DH's who have a higher career wRC+ than Ortiz. Piazza is the best offensive catcher of all time (though, technically, Posey is currently ahead) and it's not really all that close.

[Green Habit]

What other PED guys are in though?

For people who know baseball better than I do, do you get the feeling that once we have some generational turnover this won't be as much of an issue? That's been my vague thought once the Boomers on the HOF committee get replaced with some Xers.

[philpritchard]

What other PED guys are in though?

For people who know baseball better than I do, do you get the feeling that once we have some generational turnover this won't be as much of an issue? That's been my vague thought once the Boomers on the HOF committee get replaced with some Xers.

I'm hopefully, but it's hard to say.

[@SkitchP]

I was just trolling Red Sox fans.

and it worked! Well one of them.


Ortiz should probably be in. But he is a step below Bagwell, Piazza and Martinez.

[Norah]

Bagwell, Martinez, Piazza, and Ortiz are all Hall of Famers in my opinion.

[philpritchard]

Bagwell, Martinez, Piazza, and Ortiz are all Hall of Famers in my opinion.

Ortiz is just a notch below the others (and several below Bagwell). To me, he's a pretty borderline guy, but I think the arguments for his inclusion are strong enough that I would support him. Martinez and Piazza shouldn't even be a debate, and Bagwell not being in is an absolute joke.

[E.H. Ruddock]

I've always liked Martinez. I hope next year is the year.

[@SkitchP]

Next year is all about Trammell, and somehow Lou Whitaker.

[philpritchard]

Next year is all about Trammell, and somehow Lou Whitaker.

Voters are stupid.

[E.H. Ruddock]

This year's MLB ballott:

The ballot: Garret Anderson, Brad Ausmus, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Luis Castillo, Roger Clemens, David Eckstein, Jim Edmonds, Nomar Garciaparra, Troy Glaus, Ken Griffey Jr., Mark Grudzielanek, Mike Hampton, Trevor Hoffman, Jason Kendall, Jeff Kent, Mike Lowell, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Mike Mussina, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Gary Sheffield, Lee Smith, Sammy Sosa, Mike Sweeney, Alan Trammell, Billy Wagner, Larry Walker, Randy Winn.

Griffey will be in, right? Will Hoffman be a first ballot HOFer?

[Norah]

This year's MLB ballott:

The ballot: Garret Anderson, Brad Ausmus, Jeff Bagwell, Barry Bonds, Luis Castillo, Roger Clemens, David Eckstein, Jim Edmonds, Nomar Garciaparra, Troy Glaus, Ken Griffey Jr., Mark Grudzielanek, Mike Hampton, Trevor Hoffman, Jason Kendall, Jeff Kent, Mike Lowell, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Mark McGwire, Mike Mussina, Mike Piazza, Tim Raines, Curt Schilling, Gary Sheffield, Lee Smith, Sammy Sosa, Mike Sweeney, Alan Trammell, Billy Wagner, Larry Walker, Randy Winn.