Film: Macbeth (December 2015)

[epilogue]

Yeah, I kinda feel the same. So we'll let it mellow for a bit. And come back to it later and see what happens.

At any rate, I'm pretty excited for this movie.

[LoathedVermin72]

Okay, one last thing. I just have to pose this question. I just have to.

You said Macbeth is a perfect play, right? That it cannot possibly be better? It's flawless. It's amazing. It's spectacular. It's a masterpiece. Okay.

For the sake of argument, consider this hypothetical scenario: What if Macbeth were not an original play? What if long before it was written, there was another play with the same title that was widely revered as a masterpiece. Then Shakespeare came along, adapted it very loosely, excising and changing large parts of the original play, and created his Macbeth - exactly as it is now. The same exact text. Would that affect the quality of Shakespeare's play in any way? By your logic, shouldn't he have been more "respectful" of the original play, even if it would have compromised his own loose adaptation and rendered it inferior to the perfect work of art you consider it to be?

[epilogue]

Okay, one last thing. I just have to pose this question. I just have to.

You said Macbeth is a perfect play, right? That it cannot possibly be better? It's flawless. It's amazing. It's spectacular. It's a masterpiece. Okay.

For the sake of argument, consider this hypothetical scenario: What if Macbeth were not an original play? What if long before it was written, there was another play with the same title that was widely revered as a masterpiece. Then Shakespeare came along, adapted it very loosely, excising and changing large parts of the original play, and created his Macbeth - exactly as it is now. The same exact text. Would that affect the quality of Shakespeare's play in any way? By your logic, shouldn't he have been more "respectful" of the original play, even if it would have compromised his own loose adaptation and rendered it inferior to the perfect work of art you consider it to be?

Couple things:

I'm all in favor of taking themes, characters, settings, etc and even borrowing structure to make a new piece. If Shakespeare did that, no problem. If Shakespeare literally took chunks of another author's dialogue and cut parts he didn't like or moved a speech to a different place and then colored around the edges with his own stuff, I have a problem with that. It's an ideological/ethical problem more than an artistic one, though.

Directly, honestly, the answer to your question is probably: no, it wouldn't ultimately affect the quality of Shakespeare's play. But I'd have trouble calling it Shakespeare's play. Part of what makes the work so singular and great, to me, is authorship.

But taking it a step further, we don't know the piece Shakespeare ripped off. So, in your hypothetical scenario, we have nothing to compare Shakespeare's piece to. Maybe his play isn't that great or perfect or interesting compared to the thing he stole from.

Ultimately, art, for me is about emotion and how I react to a piece. Shakespeare's play as I know it is fantastic and it affects me. Nothing could change that. But it would forever change the way I thought about the piece and the way I reacted to it moving forward to find out it was largely stolen without permission and/or credit.

But, again, there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Shakespeare took other's ideas and ran with them all the time. So, it's probably fair that others do the same thing to him.

[LoathedVermin72]

Interesting. Reminds me a bit of the Polanski debate I had with Skitch a while back. Seems to come down to how much cognitive importance one places on authorship or other factors that exist outside the actual work of art itself. I just fundamentally don't think that's relevant; all I care about is how well the work succeeds on its own terms.

[epilogue]

I should probably feel the same, really. I guess I just sort of demand a level of transparency and discourse from artists. It's fine to borrow or steal or whatever, just admit to it.

But, again, these are all degrees. Ideally, it would never happen. But when it does, I don't want to automatically dismiss it out of hand, but fore-knowledge will have an affect on my experience.

I won't automatically discount or throw away something that I know is a rip off or whatever. But it'll have a much harder time.

Did you ever see Scotland, PA? That was a really fun way to "adapt" Macbeth. And by adapt, I mean tell the same story with many of the same character names with references to Shakespeare, but removing Shakespeare's text.

[E.H. Ruddock]

I enjoyed Scotland, PA

[LoathedVermin72]

I have not seen that. But I am in favor of adaptations in all their forms. You should really check out Throne of Blood if you haven't seen it. From the ones I've seen, it's definitely the best cinematic incarnation of Macbeth. And no original text was needed.

[epilogue]

I have not seen that. But I am in favor of adaptations in all their forms. You should really check out Throne of Blood if you haven't seen it. From the ones I've seen, it's definitely the best cinematic incarnation of Macbeth. And no original text was needed.

I've heard nothing but amazing things about Throne of Blood. It's been on my list for a long, long time. I really have no excuse for not seeing it. No excuse. The clips I've seen have been breathtaking.

[epilogue]

I enjoyed Scotland, PA

A lotta fun, yeah? I really enjoyed what they did with it.

[Stickman]

[Mecca]

good thread