Rank the Best Kanye Singles...

[bart]

methinks.

Do you, though?

[Kevin Davis]

For my money, "Power" is the best example of Kanye as an "orchestral producer" -- the way different elements of the sample appear and disappear throughout the track, and interact with each other in different capacities and combinations, culminating in that harmonically stunning coda with those "ah-ah, hey-hey"s looping over the chord changes from earlier in the song. Just wonderful stuff.

17 writers credited (including Robert Fripp - WTF?)...

4 producer credits...

Yes, when a lot of artists are sampled, they all have to be credited as writers, not dissimilar to an author including a bibliography when citing the works of other writers. The fact that there are 17 writers on that track (one of whom was indeed Robert Fripp, whose "21st Century Schizoid Man" is sampled) is an argument for, not against, Kanye's talents as a manipulator of samples -- it feels like you're kind of misunderstanding the fundamental infrastructure of rap music here, and defaulting to the old fallacy that hip-hop artists sample records because they can't compose music on their own. Having 17 composers on that track isn't Kanye needing 17 composers' worth of "help" -- that's just the number of pieces he used for his collage, the number of authors he needed to cite as reference.

Maybe it is an old, tired argument, but if you're such a great composer you wouldn't need to take so much from other artists, methinks.

It's not only old and tired, it's just flat-out wrong -- hip-hop artists don't "need" to take from other artists. It's a choice; it's part of what the music is. It's an art form unto itself, and I guarantee that most virtuoso instrumentalists would be as lost trying to build a song from samples as many producers would be trying to lead a rock band.

The thing I hate about the argument is the condescending implication that all rappers secretly wish they could play instruments themselves and only use samples out of some kind of artistic desperation. THIS IS FALSE AND RIDICULOUS. You can do things with samples that you can't do with live instrumentation, and vice versa.

[Iholdthepain]

methinks.

Do you, though?

I doth protest too much, Bart.

[LoathedVermin72]

For my money, "Power" is the best example of Kanye as an "orchestral producer" -- the way different elements of the sample appear and disappear throughout the track, and interact with each other in different capacities and combinations, culminating in that harmonically stunning coda with those "ah-ah, hey-hey"s looping over the chord changes from earlier in the song. Just wonderful stuff.

17 writers credited (including Robert Fripp - WTF?)...

4 producer credits...

Yes, when a lot of artists are sampled, they all have to be credited as writers, not dissimilar to an author including a bibliography when citing the works of other writers. The fact that there are 17 writers on that track (one of whom was indeed Robert Fripp, whose "21st Century Schizoid Man" is sampled) is an argument for, not against, Kanye's talents as a manipulator of samples -- it feels like you're kind of misunderstanding the fundamental infrastructure of rap music here, and defaulting to the old fallacy that hip-hop artists sample records because they can't compose music on their own. Having 17 composers on that track isn't Kanye needing 17 composers' worth of "help" -- that's just the number of pieces he used for his collage, the number of authors he needed to cite as reference.

Maybe it is an old, tired argument, but if you're such a great composer you wouldn't need to take so much from other artists, methinks.

And once again you are showing you don't understand rap at all.

[Iholdthepain]

For my money, "Power" is the best example of Kanye as an "orchestral producer" -- the way different elements of the sample appear and disappear throughout the track, and interact with each other in different capacities and combinations, culminating in that harmonically stunning coda with those "ah-ah, hey-hey"s looping over the chord changes from earlier in the song. Just wonderful stuff.

17 writers credited (including Robert Fripp - WTF?)...

4 producer credits...

Yes, when a lot of artists are sampled, they all have to be credited as writers, not dissimilar to an author including a bibliography when citing the works of other writers. The fact that there are 17 writers on that track (one of whom was indeed Robert Fripp, whose "21st Century Schizoid Man" is sampled) is an argument for, not against, Kanye's talents as a manipulator of samples -- it feels like you're kind of misunderstanding the fundamental infrastructure of rap music here, and defaulting to the old fallacy that hip-hop artists sample records because they can't compose music on their own. Having 17 composers on that track isn't Kanye needing 17 composers' worth of "help" -- that's just the number of pieces he used for his collage, the number of authors he needed to cite as reference.

Maybe it is an old, tired argument, but if you're such a great composer you wouldn't need to take so much from other artists, methinks.

It's not only old and tired, it's just flat-out wrong -- hip-hop artists don't "need" to take from other artists. It's a choice; it's part of what the music is. It's an art form unto itself, and I guarantee that most virtuoso instrumentalists would be as lost trying to build a song from samples as many producers would be trying to lead a rock band.

The thing I hate about the argument is the condescending implication that all rappers secretly wish they could play instruments themselves and only use samples out of some kind of artistic desperation. THIS IS FALSE AND RIDICULOUS. You can do things with samples that you can't do with live instrumentation, and vice versa.

I get the sampling... The Beasties did a shit ton of that! Hell, Dre did a ton of that, too. But I'm not saying Dre is the greatest composer ever! 17 writing credits, though??? That's a LOT of taking for one song.

[Kevin Davis]

I wish Rick Rubin was here, because I could really use something to slam my head against right now.

[epilogue]

I was right to avoid this thread for so long. But never in a million years would I have guessed the reason. Jesus.

[Kevin Davis]

I was right to avoid this thread for so long. But never in a million years would I have guessed the reason. Jesus.

What was the reason you imagined, and what was the actual reason?

[epilogue]

I was right to avoid this thread for so long. But never in a million years would I have guessed the reason. Jesus.

What was the reason you imagined, and what was the actual reason?

The reason I imagined was Kanye West.

The real reason was thiposaurus.

[Iholdthepain]

I was right to avoid this thread for so long. But never in a million years would I have guessed the reason. Jesus.

What was the reason you imagined, and what was the actual reason?

The reason I imagined was Kanye West.

The real reason was thiposaurus.

Not an authorized nickname, nor is it funny...

[Kaius]

Wait--isn't Rick Rubin helping to produce Kanye's next album?

[Kevin Davis]

I think he actually put some finishing touches on "Yeezus" too.

[epilogue]

Oh reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAlly?!

[Iholdthepain]

Kanye called in Rubin to help get Yeezus out for release by Kanye's self-imposed deadline. Rubin has stated that K gave him extremely difficult parameters with which to work, and Rubin also said he thought the music was literally making him sick

That's why I brought him up in the first place...

EDIT: I found this RS article with a quick google search:
http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/ ... e-20130627

Lol @ Brickwalling Rick Rubin saving Kanye's ass

[LoathedVermin72]

I was about to come in this thread to apologize to thip for being so aggressive but goddammit he is not making it easy

[epilogue]

I was about to come in this thread to apologize to thip for being so aggressive but goddammit he is not making it easy

You're a good man, verm.

[Iholdthepain]

I was about to come in this thread to apologize to thip for being so aggressive but goddammit he is not making it easy

I don't believe you...

[BurtReynolds]

we need weighted rankings.

[Rangi Guy]

I'd also argue that anyone saying that artists need to be humble and that Kanye is a douche because he essentially just has really high self-esteem is displaying an ignorance of what rap music is all about.

I always thought he was just really insecure.... If you're good - you don't need to tell the world that you're good. They'll be able to tell that for themselves

[LoathedVermin72]

I'd also argue that anyone saying that artists need to be humble and that Kanye is a douche because he essentially just has really high self-esteem is displaying an ignorance of what rap music is all about.

I always thought he was just really insecure.... If you're good - you don't need to tell the world that you're good. They'll be able to tell that for themselves

Of course he's insecure, but that's part of what makes him compelling. And one needs to understand that bravado is an integral part of rap. It's the music of an oppressed people expressing their value, asserting their self-worth. It is the opposite position of most rock music, which is often filled with self-loathing and "humility," which is just a manifiestation of ruling class ennui.