durdencommatyler wrote:Outside of physically hurting another person maliciously, there are few things I understand as little as shitting on someone's joy. Especially for something as innocuous as a goddamn movie. Blech. It just feels so shitty to me.
I think the source of one's joy can be a valid thing to question. Fucking kids brings pedophiles great joy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned.
Which is why I put in that caveat about maliciously hurting someone. I'm obviously not talking about pedophilia.
Right, I'm just saying joy isn't an inherently good thing above reproach. I think nerd culture is and has been an intellectually destructive force, which is why I question the kind of joy Smith is expressing.
I agree that joy isn't inherently good. But when it comes to a person enjoying a piece of art or entertainment (that, again, doesn't revolve around real human suffering or abuse, like snuff films for example) I can't imagine how it's harmful at all. AT ALL.
Especially when that one single person's opinion has absolutely no barring whatsoever on how you or anyone else chooses to consume and/or analyse that same piece of art.
Sorry to cause such hassle by posting that.
I just thought his was an interesting view cos as such a hardcore fan, he'd be with us in his skepticism or caution about any new attempts to go back to Star Wars.
But then Seeing his talk after he'd visited the set and all the gushing he did about how it all feels right and they've nailed it, encouraged me personally.
I don't think the quality of lack of in his recent output should have any bearing on his opinion on something we all love, him included, in any way.
durdencommatyler wrote:Outside of physically hurting another person maliciously, there are few things I understand as little as shitting on someone's joy. Especially for something as innocuous as a goddamn movie. Blech. It just feels so shitty to me.
I think the source of one's joy can be a valid thing to question. Fucking kids brings pedophiles great joy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned.
Which is why I put in that caveat about maliciously hurting someone. I'm obviously not talking about pedophilia.
Right, I'm just saying joy isn't an inherently good thing above reproach. I think nerd culture is and has been an intellectually destructive force, which is why I question the kind of joy Smith is expressing.
I agree that joy isn't inherently good. But when it comes to a person enjoying a piece of art or entertainment (that, again, doesn't revolve around real human suffering or abuse, like snuff films for example) I can't imagine how it's harmful at all. AT ALL.
Especially when that one single person's opinion has absolutely no barring whatsoever on how you or anyone else chooses to consume and/or analyse that same piece of art.
Kevin Smith likes Star Wars, what an asshole.
I think we can all agree that if Naboo had a sex offender registry Jar Jar would be on it
durdencommatyler wrote:Outside of physically hurting another person maliciously, there are few things I understand as little as shitting on someone's joy. Especially for something as innocuous as a goddamn movie. Blech. It just feels so shitty to me.
I think the source of one's joy can be a valid thing to question. Fucking kids brings pedophiles great joy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned.
Which is why I put in that caveat about maliciously hurting someone. I'm obviously not talking about pedophilia.
Right, I'm just saying joy isn't an inherently good thing above reproach. I think nerd culture is and has been an intellectually destructive force, which is why I question the kind of joy Smith is expressing.
I agree that joy isn't inherently good. But when it comes to a person enjoying a piece of art or entertainment (that, again, doesn't revolve around real human suffering or abuse, like snuff films for example) I can't imagine how it's harmful at all. AT ALL.
Especially when that one single person's opinion has absolutely no barring whatsoever on how you or anyone else chooses to consume and/or analyse that same piece of art.
Kevin Smith likes Star Wars, what an asshole.
I think we can all agree that if Naboo had a sex offender registry Jar Jar would be on it
Yeah, but he'd be like a Michael Jackson sex offender. Like sure he did some weird stuff that most adults would never do, but you have to believe he really didn't know better and thought everyone was just having a good time.
durdencommatyler wrote:Outside of physically hurting another person maliciously, there are few things I understand as little as shitting on someone's joy. Especially for something as innocuous as a goddamn movie. Blech. It just feels so shitty to me.
I think the source of one's joy can be a valid thing to question. Fucking kids brings pedophiles great joy, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be condemned.
Which is why I put in that caveat about maliciously hurting someone. I'm obviously not talking about pedophilia.
Right, I'm just saying joy isn't an inherently good thing above reproach. I think nerd culture is and has been an intellectually destructive force, which is why I question the kind of joy Smith is expressing.
I agree that joy isn't inherently good. But when it comes to a person enjoying a piece of art or entertainment (that, again, doesn't revolve around real human suffering or abuse, like snuff films for example) I can't imagine how it's harmful at all. AT ALL.
Especially when that one single person's opinion has absolutely no barring whatsoever on how you or anyone else chooses to consume and/or analyse that same piece of art.
Kevin Smith likes Star Wars, what an asshole.
This isn't about liking Star Wars. This is about thinking it's good that you "feel like a kid," which is really what all nerd culture is about - infantilization (the opposite of maturity). Like I said, the phenomenon of nerd culture is something I find destructive both intellectually and artistically, so I bristle when an adult says stuff like Smith did. Film - art - contributes to our culture. It's not always just this insular, personal thing, especially when it chokes the mainstream and reflects (and infects) the public consciousness. When the most beloved pop art of our time is designed to transport people backward, not forward, I find it a little unsettling. As someone who cares about film, art, and pop culture, you bet your ass I'm gonna question the shit out of finding joy in that.
LoathedVermin72 wrote:Finding rhapsodic joy in feeling infantilized seems very dubious
it's not infantilization. It's like the feeling of falling in love for the first time, again. its special in part because it should be impossible
That's not what he said, though. And that's not what this kind of nerd culture fawning is.
Nerd culture can be irritating, but no more than any other internet subculture. They all suffer from the same absence of appropriate social norms that enable people to have respectful discussions with each other.
Having said that, you have to understand that Star Wars is foundational nerd culture - the movies anyway. And it's not just that this is new Star Wars (there's always new Star Wars games, books, TV, etc.) It is a new Star Wars MOVIE, and one that offers a chance to purify and restore the idea of Star Wars, which for many many people is the foundational embodiment of satisfying imaginative mythic storytelling. It's not that this will be the best story ever told - but if told well it will take people back to the space where they first really began to think about what an imagination is for. That's powerful, and there's a lot riding on this for a lot of people.
This is also coming at a time when faith in pretty much all the institutions that bind us together is at an all time low - so there will be much more invested in anything that enables us to feel innocent or pure.
That's what's underneath the Star Wars phenomena besides simple nostalgia, toy marketing, or nerd culture. It is what separates this from transformers or batman v superman or Jem
stip wrote:This is also coming at a time when faith in pretty much all the institutions that bind us together is at an all time low - so there will be much more invested in anything that enables us to feel innocent or pure.
That's what's underneath the Star Wars phenomena besides simple nostalgia, toy marketing, or nerd culture. It is what separates this from transformers or batman v superman or Jem
This still just sounds like simple nostalgia, marketing, and nerd culture to me. "Innocent" and "pure" are basically just code for nostalgia (or ignorance).
First of all, the marketing complaint is pretty silly. Every film need to make money and find an audience, especially if it costs you a hundred million dollars to make. Film has been a business since the very beginning. Marketing is irritating if you don't like the product, but there's no difference between what you see her and what you see with the DC films you are excited for, other than the fact that there is more of it because the potential audience is larger.
And yes, anything that builds off of the past has elements of nostalgia in it. But to reduce the Star Wars phenomena to nostalgia misses what makes it different from, say, transformers (or comic book movies based on characters that are 70+ years old)
The ignorance comment is just you trying to feel superior without having to earn it
stip wrote:First of all, the marketing complaint is pretty silly. Every film need to make money and find an audience, especially if it costs you a hundred million dollars to make. Film has been a business since the very beginning. Marketing is irritating if you don't like the product, but there's no difference between what you see her and what you see with the DC films you are excited for, other than the fact that there is more of it because the potential audience is larger.
And yes, anything that builds off of the past has elements of nostalgia in it. But to reduce the Star Wars phenomena to nostalgia misses what makes it different from, say, transformers (or comic book movies based on characters that are 70+ years old)
The ignorance comment is just you trying to feel superior without having to earn it
I think you guys are misunderstanding what I mean by ignorance. That's what "innocence" is. A longing to feel transported to a more juvenile mindset (nostalgia) is a longing for the joy of ignorance. A time when you didn't know as much as you do now. Nostalgia/innocence/purity - all just romanticizations of ignorance. Whether the connotations of that are positive or negative is up to you.
"Innocence" is actually just a state of moral purity. It can be associated with a lack of knowledge (how biblical...) or not, but it absolutely is a romanticized concept and essentially just a way of selling escapism as somehow virtuous.
stip wrote:First of all, the marketing complaint is pretty silly. Every film need to make money and find an audience, especially if it costs you a hundred million dollars to make. Film has been a business since the very beginning. Marketing is irritating if you don't like the product, but there's no difference between what you see her and what you see with the DC films you are excited for, other than the fact that there is more of it because the potential audience is larger.
And yes, anything that builds off of the past has elements of nostalgia in it. But to reduce the Star Wars phenomena to nostalgia misses what makes it different from, say, transformers (or comic book movies based on characters that are 70+ years old)
The ignorance comment is just you trying to feel superior without having to earn it
I think you guys are misunderstanding what I mean by ignorance. That's what "innocence" is. A longing to feel transported to a more juvenile mindset (nostalgia) is a longing for the joy of ignorance. A time when you didn't know as much as you do now. Nostalgia/innocence/purity - all just romanticizations of ignorance. Whether the connotations of that are positive or negative is up to you.
That is A way to look at what this is, but it makes more sense to think of this in terms of a renewal. It's a chance to start over, knowing what you know but not feeling constrained by it - an absence of cynisim. To equate that with ignorance is to equate cynicism with wisdom
A lot of the time I think stuff like this comes down to identity, actually. We use the things we like, and the things we don't, to help build a construct in our minds that is "me." For entertainment's sake, this includes both subjects within media types (Pearl Jam fan, Star Wars nerd), and which types of media we pursue (movie geek, gamer, YouTuber).
If something like Star Wars or Pearl Jam is a part of how you've built your understanding of your self, then it's a different kind of bond than for those of us for whom it is not. And neither side of this equation is inherently capable of understanding the other, because we're both saying Star Wars, but were sort of talking about two different things.
