The War on Terror /Central Asia/Mid East/Africa thread

[stip]

stip, are you on sabbatical this semester or what?

I laughed

I did too

[stip]

Is it possible for you to be incorrect? The argument from the so-called "smart" people is that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it has to do with bombed out, destitute countries bought and sold into barbaric civil wars that allow opportunist countries/actors to enact their wishes. ISIS kills regardless of creed; you are either with their cause (which is creating their own state) or not. Equating critiques of Huckabee-esque Christianity in the USA to measured responses to the role of Islam with ISIS is horribly out of place. A more apt comparison would be if those "smart" people blamed Christianity for right-wing terrorist attacks. But those "smart" people don't, other than to bring the example in arenas such as this. To equate the "bashing" of Christianity in the USA to the bashing (no quotes here, it is bashing) that is occurring of all muslims is utterly hilarious.

It's one thing to disagree with people. It's another to mock them and call them bigots, when the argument is very easily turned right back to yourself.

You seem to keep inferring a lot from what I say. Once we again, you jump to the "all Muslims" crap, which I never once said.

You bet your ass Christianity is responsible for loads of violence and hatred in the west. The left has no problem acknowledging the problems with Christianity. People feel free to casually talk about, even criticize and insult, the ideology of Christianity without having to worry about being called a bigot. But if you try to do the same regarding Islam? Well, you yourself just implied I was a bigot.

I think it's hilarious and, again, delusional to say that ISIS "has nothing to do with Islam." Just as it's hilarious and delusional to say that the Westboro Baptist Church has nothing to do with Christianity. Of course they fucking do! We can't just distort reality and pretend that the REAL Muslims and the REAL Christians are just the nice people we like. That is solipsistic nonsense. These religions give stupid people a mandate to be hateful, and yes, even violent. It gives them justification for their anger and discontent. It gives them an ideological framework from which to hurt and kill. We need to stop pretending these things aren't linked. That is disingenuous, a huge obstacle in the way of discourse or progress.

So that's what I sounded like in college!

[stip]

Is it possible for you to be incorrect? The argument from the so-called "smart" people is that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it has to do with bombed out, destitute countries bought and sold into barbaric civil wars that allow opportunist countries/actors to enact their wishes. ISIS kills regardless of creed; you are either with their cause (which is creating their own state) or not. Equating critiques of Huckabee-esque Christianity in the USA to measured responses to the role of Islam with ISIS is horribly out of place. A more apt comparison would be if those "smart" people blamed Christianity for right-wing terrorist attacks. But those "smart" people don't, other than to bring the example in arenas such as this. To equate the "bashing" of Christianity in the USA to the bashing (no quotes here, it is bashing) that is occurring of all muslims is utterly hilarious.

It's one thing to disagree with people. It's another to mock them and call them bigots, when the argument is very easily turned right back to yourself.

You seem to keep inferring a lot from what I say. Once we again, you jump to the "all Muslims" crap, which I never once said.

You bet your ass Christianity is responsible for loads of violence and hatred in the west. The left has no problem acknowledging the problems with Christianity. People feel free to casually talk about, even criticize and insult, the ideology of Christianity without having to worry about being called a bigot. But if you try to do the same regarding Islam? Well, you yourself just implied I was a bigot.

I think it's hilarious and, again, delusional to say that ISIS "has nothing to do with Islam." Just as it's hilarious and delusional to say that the Westboro Baptist Church has nothing to do with Christianity. Of course they fucking do! We can't just distort reality and pretend that the REAL Muslims and the REAL Christians are just the nice people we like. That is solipsistic nonsense. These religions give stupid people a mandate to be hateful, and yes, even violent. It gives them justification for their anger and discontent. It gives them an ideological framework from which to hurt and kill. We need to stop pretending these things aren't linked. That is disingenuous, a huge obstacle in the way of discourse or progress.

Also, LV, do you have some kind of Memento-like condition where you immediately forget what you just posted?

[stip]

I might also suggest that religions also can give people plenty of justification to do wonderful and marvelous things for other human beings, and that religion is hardly necessary to give people a reason to be violent. Which means we are right back to the point that motivations are complicated and that reductionist arguments about religion are about as useful as reductionist arguments about, well, anything.

I would also be interested in finding some concrete examples of people who defend muslims (if by defend you mean they argue that there is not an explicit connection between the religion and proclivities towards violence) and who don't say that about Christians. Or people who condemn regressive practices towards women with Christians but excuse them for muslims. Because defending muslims as not all being people one political cartoon away from murder WHILE simultaneously arguing that conservative christian values are regressive is not contradictory.

And if/when you find these people, I would be curious how influential they are. Because, and this is no small thing, the people who make these negative arguments about muslims are very important people. Political leaders, shapers of public opinions, people with followers. And there are a LOT of them. I strongly suspect that the alleged liberal equivalents, if they exist, are far more marginalized in our political and social discourse (and probably for good reason).

[LoathedVermin72]

Is it possible for you to be incorrect? The argument from the so-called "smart" people is that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it has to do with bombed out, destitute countries bought and sold into barbaric civil wars that allow opportunist countries/actors to enact their wishes. ISIS kills regardless of creed; you are either with their cause (which is creating their own state) or not. Equating critiques of Huckabee-esque Christianity in the USA to measured responses to the role of Islam with ISIS is horribly out of place. A more apt comparison would be if those "smart" people blamed Christianity for right-wing terrorist attacks. But those "smart" people don't, other than to bring the example in arenas such as this. To equate the "bashing" of Christianity in the USA to the bashing (no quotes here, it is bashing) that is occurring of all muslims is utterly hilarious.

It's one thing to disagree with people. It's another to mock them and call them bigots, when the argument is very easily turned right back to yourself.

You seem to keep inferring a lot from what I say. Once we again, you jump to the "all Muslims" crap, which I never once said.

You bet your ass Christianity is responsible for loads of violence and hatred in the west. The left has no problem acknowledging the problems with Christianity. People feel free to casually talk about, even criticize and insult, the ideology of Christianity without having to worry about being called a bigot. But if you try to do the same regarding Islam? Well, you yourself just implied I was a bigot.

I think it's hilarious and, again, delusional to say that ISIS "has nothing to do with Islam." Just as it's hilarious and delusional to say that the Westboro Baptist Church has nothing to do with Christianity. Of course they fucking do! We can't just distort reality and pretend that the REAL Muslims and the REAL Christians are just the nice people we like. That is solipsistic nonsense. These religions give stupid people a mandate to be hateful, and yes, even violent. It gives them justification for their anger and discontent. It gives them an ideological framework from which to hurt and kill. We need to stop pretending these things aren't linked. That is disingenuous, a huge obstacle in the way of discourse or progress.

Also, LV, do you have some kind of Memento-like condition where you immediately forget what you just posted?

Do you have some kind of condition where you continually misread what I say to suit your own biases?

[stip]

Is it possible for you to be incorrect? The argument from the so-called "smart" people is that ISIS has nothing to do with Islam, but rather it has to do with bombed out, destitute countries bought and sold into barbaric civil wars that allow opportunist countries/actors to enact their wishes. ISIS kills regardless of creed; you are either with their cause (which is creating their own state) or not. Equating critiques of Huckabee-esque Christianity in the USA to measured responses to the role of Islam with ISIS is horribly out of place. A more apt comparison would be if those "smart" people blamed Christianity for right-wing terrorist attacks. But those "smart" people don't, other than to bring the example in arenas such as this. To equate the "bashing" of Christianity in the USA to the bashing (no quotes here, it is bashing) that is occurring of all muslims is utterly hilarious.

It's one thing to disagree with people. It's another to mock them and call them bigots, when the argument is very easily turned right back to yourself.

You seem to keep inferring a lot from what I say. Once we again, you jump to the "all Muslims" crap, which I never once said.

You bet your ass Christianity is responsible for loads of violence and hatred in the west. The left has no problem acknowledging the problems with Christianity. People feel free to casually talk about, even criticize and insult, the ideology of Christianity without having to worry about being called a bigot. But if you try to do the same regarding Islam? Well, you yourself just implied I was a bigot.

I think it's hilarious and, again, delusional to say that ISIS "has nothing to do with Islam." Just as it's hilarious and delusional to say that the Westboro Baptist Church has nothing to do with Christianity. Of course they fucking do! We can't just distort reality and pretend that the REAL Muslims and the REAL Christians are just the nice people we like. That is solipsistic nonsense. These religions give stupid people a mandate to be hateful, and yes, even violent. It gives them justification for their anger and discontent. It gives them an ideological framework from which to hurt and kill. We need to stop pretending these things aren't linked. That is disingenuous, a huge obstacle in the way of discourse or progress.

Also, LV, do you have some kind of Memento-like condition where you immediately forget what you just posted?

Do you have some kind of condition where you continually misread what I say to suit your own biases?

Anything is possible.

[stip]

you introduced the new caveat 'stupid' to people in your last post. So is your issue with islam that it makes stupid people do bad things, but everyone else is fine? Because otherwise you keep insisting that there is something inherently dangerous in the religion, that the people who follow it are somehow incapable of following the religion while excising the parts they find offensive (ISIS IS Islam, the WBC IS Christianity), and yet, somehow, this is not a blanket comment about the people who follow the religion.

[LoathedVermin72]

[stip]

is your point that if you take every single thing these religion say literally then you can find justifications to do bad things? if so, fine, but then you're larger point is of essentially zero utility since that is not the way the overwhelming majority of people of any religion understand and experience it.

[track11]

Personally, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, LV. To suggest that I somehow feel more comfortable insulting Christianity among a group of random Americans than Islam is baffling. If there are repercussions to speaking poorly of Islam, I sure ain't seeing it. A Republican presidential hopeful who may actually win the nomination said that Muslims should not be president, and his poll numbers went up! You are equating the meaningless lip service paid to the "aw, not all muslims are bad!" to actual roadblocks. You seem like the kind of person who can differentiate the two. I don't think there is anything getting in the way of having real conversations in the USA that point blame at Islam. If anything, I see a need to dial back the rhetoric because it is PREVENTING honest, truthful, balanced conversations, which is what I am trying to do in this thread.

[stip]

are you face palming because I am getting you wrong, or are you facepalming in an epiphanal realization that what you've been saying is ridiculous?

[stip]

Personally, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, LV.

he just posted the facepalm, track11. It couldn't be clearer!

[BurtReynolds]

heh the only thing preventing honest, truthful, balanced conversations is your complete misunderstanding of what is being said. It is very clear but there is some kind of communication breakdown I can't begin to unravel.

The time for talk is over. Diplomacy suspended.

[stip]

heh the only thing preventing honest, truthful, balanced conversations is your complete misunderstanding of what is being said. It is very clear but there is some kind of communication breakdown I can't begin to unravel.

The time for talk is over. Diplomacy suspended.

then in all seriousness I would like to see it explained as a stand alone post, not in response to something else.

[BurtReynolds]

I SAID GOOD DAY!

[track11]

Good, cause I ain't got no more time for talkin'! Work calls.

[stip]

you introduced the new caveat 'stupid' to people in your last post. So is your issue with islam that it makes stupid people do bad things, but everyone else is fine? Because otherwise you keep insisting that there is something inherently dangerous in the religion, that the people who follow it are somehow incapable of following the religion while excising the parts they find offensive (ISIS IS Islam, the WBC IS Christianity), and yet, somehow, this is not a blanket comment about the people who follow the religion.

Interpretatively, where does this go wrong?

[BurtReynolds]

Good, cause I ain't got no more time for talkin'! Work calls.

it doesnt help that i'm kind of working and listening to a podcast while reading this.

[stip]

I SAID GOOD DAY!

but if you go away I've got to go and do work!

[LoathedVermin72]

You guys really are fundamentally misunderstanding everything I'm saying, and then jumping all over the place in your rebuttals. I'll respond when I have some more time, but like Burt said, it's difficult to unravel the miscommunication when you seem so intent on confirming your own narrative.