PRAMG Top 10

[WaitingForBluey]

For the most part, I agree with Stip's argument that if people liked the recent albums more then PRAMG would not even be an issue that we would discuss.

But KD's point is pretty much spot on: the "MG" origins of the "PRAMG" truly stem from the past 6-7 years or so, when the number of high-profile, revenue-generating occasions (anniversary tours, a movie, reissue packages, gaudy private corporate parties, etc.) really started to overtake creating music as the band's number one priority.

It's the impression (or perhaps reality) that they care more about relying on their past successes than getting out their hammers and saws and cranking out new music every 2 years like the "hard working band" they used to be. And this is coming from a guy who happens to really like the last 3 albums. I think the "MG" part of this is a little unfair because it's a lazy explanation of the current state of the band. These guys are just content and don't feel the same urgency to produce art (except for Jeff maybe). That's my only concern. The band seems to care less about their output than I do as a fan. Maybe that's just my fault.

[McParadigm]

For the most part, I agree with Stip's argument that if people liked the recent albums more then PRAMG would not even be an issue that we would discuss.

This is almost certainly true. But I absolutely do not believe that there is a scenario wherein they put one of these "it sounds like Pearl Jam" albums together, and it results in something that is both high quality and memorable. The very nature of their approach to record making now is an off-shoot of the nostalgia-feeding and legacy building.

In other words, it's not that we cry 'profit and safety' because the records aren't as interesting....it's that the records aren't as interesting because the band is more concerned with creating works that are safely profitable.

But KD's point is pretty much spot on: the "MG" origins of the "PRAMG" truly stem from the past 6-7 years or so, when the number of high-profile, revenue-generating occasions (anniversary tours, a movie, reissue packages, gaudy private corporate parties, etc.) really started to overtake creating music as the band's number one priority.

Yeah, that's spot on. And as you said later in your post, it's not really a money grab. It's a group of guys who are ready for semi-retirement, but who want to enjoy the spoils for a little while longer, want to strengthen their financial safety net for the future, and have friends whose entire careers have basically been "I work for this rock band" and who are also now staring down the wrong end of 50.

It's the impression (or perhaps reality) that they care more about relying on their past successes than getting out their hammers and saws and cranking out new music every 2 years like the "hard working band" they used to be.

This is my biggest frustration: that albums have become very conservative and comfortable affairs.

In point of fact, the distance between Vs and Binaural is about 5 1/2 years, and includes three Pearl Jam records (not counting the bookends!), some of their best b-sides and outtakes, a Neil Young record, and multiple solo releases. They (and this seems true for most artists, I think) were at their creative peak when they were creating regularly, and when creative invention gets marginalized...something is lost.

[spived]

It seems to me too, that PRAMG becomes pejorative.

I just researched and bring alive the MOTH "issue." Sorry to bother your minds, people.

MG or not. I like some songs of the last 3 albums; and I am an enthusiastic collector, that I have 3 copies on CD of each album. One copy is the book version (S/T and BS). Does LB have a different package on CD? I have their vinyls too, and the 7's box. And I like the LB art.

Anyway, I haven't make my top 10, hope to do it soon. With MOTH or not

[EJ]

This is almost certainly true. But I absolutely do not believe that there is a scenario wherein they put one of these "it sounds like Pearl Jam" albums together, and it results in something that is both high quality and memorable. The very nature of their approach to record making now is an off-shoot of the nostalgia-feeding and legacy building.

In other words, it's not that we cry 'profit and safety' because the records aren't as interesting....it's that the records aren't as interesting because the band is more concerned with creating works that are safely profitable.

Ed's more interested in music the band can safely play live.

[spived]

"PRAMG" Top 10

Comatose (Pearl Jam)
Of The Earth (Pensacola)
Big Wave (Pearl Jam)
Cold Confession (Outtake)
Got Some (Backspacer)
Let It Ride (Outtake)
Unemployable (Pearl Jam)
Unthought Known (Backspacer)
Getaway (Lightning Bolt)
Amongst The Waves (Backspacer)

I like Sirens too.

[hlniv]

and hlnv's arguement really seems to be:

i like the album - promotion and touring reflect a desire to share the music

i dislike the album - promotion and touring reflect a desire to make money

i apologize if there is an element i am missing

Cmon stp, get my name right at least, and my arguement is really not complicated, I'm surprised that you can't grasp it, so apology accepted, and I will try again to explain myself.

The basic point is that the level of promotion (or moneygrab, or popularity, or relevancy, etc...) that was put out for Yield (while more than No Code and Vitalogy) is not anywhere close to the level that went into S/T, Backspacer, etc... So calling Yield the original moneygrab (or however you want to describe it), is not an accurate reflection, in my opinion.

My extended point is that this becomes even more noticeable and problematic when the music is not as good.

[hlniv]

and for what it's worth, I don't think ANY of these periods are 'moneygrabs' in the sense that it is used here. At different points in Pearl Jam's career they have been more or less concerned with expanding the reach of the audience hearing their music, and I think that's fine. But if we're gonna tar them at one stage in their career it is disingenuous to ignore identical behavior at a different stage just because we happen to like the music produced during that time.

Not anywhere close to identical behavior, stip. Be reasonable here.

[tragabigzanda]

pearl jam sucks now

[tragabigzanda]

pearl jam sucks now

[hlniv]

And for what it's worth, the term "moneygrab" as included in the original PRAMG thread was always a little tongue in cheek. Go back and read the original post.

I don't think anyone actually believes that, since 2004, they are only in it to grab as much money as they can. But, it is clear to me (and many of you it seems) that they are genuinely less interested in creating new music together as compared to maintaining the Pearl Jam brand.

[tragabigzanda]

pearl jam sucks now

[Kevin Davis]

To be clear, I personally couldn't care less what kind of promotion they do, or how much money they make, or any of that crap. I was just trying to make some sense of why people think the way they do about this. I actually have a journal of promotional ideas that I think would be great for the band, including a shampoo jingle that goes, "whatcha say, whatcha say, whatcha say when you got split ends? whatcha gonna say but OLAY," and a Carribbean cruise sweepstakes called "Vacay is the Word." In fact, coming up with marketing ideas for this band based on bad song lyric puns would be pretty much a dream job for me. If "The Rob" can get a job essentially randomizing his iTunes to play live PJ tracks and broadcasting it on satellite radio, surely there's room on their payroll for me and my next-level marketing ideas.

[epilogue]

To be clear, I personally couldn't care less what kind of promotion they do, or how much money they make, or any of that crap. I was just trying to make some sense of why people think the way they do about this. I actually have a journal of promotional ideas that I think would be great for the band, including a shampoo jingle that goes, "whatcha say, whatcha say, whatcha say when you got split ends? whatcha gonna say but OLAY," and a Carribbean cruise sweepstakes called "Vacay is the Word." In fact, coming up with marketing ideas for this band based on bad song lyric puns would be pretty much a dream job for me. If "The Rob" can get a job essentially randomizing his iTunes to play live PJ tracks and broadcasting it on satellite radio, surely there's room on their payroll for me and my next-level marketing ideas.

You have my full support.

[WaitingForBluey]

I think some of you guys are over-thinking the promotion aspect of PRAMG. Band have to promote their stuff if they ever want to sell it. Whether it's the DTE video, the Target deal, or multiple late night TV stops during a press cycle, I wouldn't call any of these excessive compared to other acts of a similar ilk; and we know that the band has some sort of internal metric as to how they offset any social/environmental costs their capitalist enterprise might have on the world. And the round of interviews for Lightning Bolt with Steve Gleason, Carrie Brownstein, etc was interesting and different.

The music has been disappointing because it's tired, and produced without any sort of depth. The amount of time spent on promotion may have some sort of detrimental effect on their music, but I think mostly it has to do with them getting old and comfortable.

Ok, pretty much this. Can we all just agree and get back to our Top 10 lists?!

[WaitingForBluey]

I would say that S/T unfairly gets lumped in with Backspacer and Lightning Bolt all too often. If the last 2 albums officially represent PJ 2.0 then S/T is more like PJ 1.5. There's clearly something transitional happening there, for better or worse, but there's also the same band I've always known and loved underneath it all (minus the zombie pyramids, of course).

[Birds in Hell]

I think worrying too much about the proper limits of the "PRAMG" is a bit silly - I was under the impression it was a bit of humorous, flippant concept to begin with, not a serious rumination on the state of the band.

Also: zombie pyramids > clip art avocado.

[chewm]

I was under the impression it was a bit of humorous, flippant concept to begin with, not a serious rumination on the state of the band.

Yeah, I felt the same way.

[stip]

I think worrying too much about the proper limits of the "PRAMG" is a bit silly - I was under the impression it was a bit of humorous, flippant concept to begin with, not a serious rumination on the state of the band.

Also: zombie pyramids > clip art avocado.

That clip art avocado is framed and on my wall. I wouldn't have touched those zombies.

A delicious fruit AND a great album

[LoathedVermin72]

I fully admit that I view the PRAMG label as funny way to disparage a relatively shitty period of the band's discography. For me, it really has nothing to do with anything beyond the music being uninteresting.

[stip]

This is almost certainly true. But I absolutely do not believe that there is a scenario wherein they put one of these "it sounds like Pearl Jam" albums together, and it results in something that is both high quality and memorable. The very nature of their approach to record making now is an off-shoot of the nostalgia-feeding and legacy building.

In other words, it's not that we cry 'profit and safety' because the records aren't as interesting....it's that the records aren't as interesting because the band is more concerned with creating works that are safely profitable.

Ed's more interested in music the band can safely play live.

That's probably more than just Ed. Pearl Jam concerts are in some ways more analogous to interactive symphonies. They don't play music, they conduct the orchestra. I'm hugely overstating that, but there's a not inconsiderable element of that to the shows. And I'm sure it's hard to blame them. It's generally an incredible experience when you're there, and if you're playing small yearly tours it's less likely to wear thin.

There are exceptions but for the most part the songs people point to as really excellent studio tracks generally fall flat live. Of the Girl works great as an opener but it's hard to picture that working mid set if you're trying to keep up the level of energy they try to maintain for almost three hours. Sleight of Hand was a momentum killer even in 2000. There's basically no song post Riot Act that you can't easily slot into almost any point of a set and have to worry about that.

Pearl Jam probably decided that their long term legacy consists of two things:

1--A great live show which in their case is defined first and foremost by the relationship built between band and audience. It's a pretty amazing thing, given the way they have people on their feet and singing along to every single song for 30+ song sets. Their shows have only gotten LONGER as their career progressed. And it is not just people showing up for hits. It's not that they avoid SoH because people won't know it. The diversity of song choices is still staggering.

2--I'm sure they see themselves as the last great American rock band in the classic rock tradition. They seem to be writing songs they think are appropriate for that legacy (influenced by point number 1). There's a classicist feel to Lighting Bolt and the choices made on that record, regardless of how well you think they're executed.