What movies are you watching?

[LoathedVermin72]

Guys, come on...If film is an industrial process, and the auteur attempts to shepherd his vision through that process, I'd say this is an extremely cohesive vision. It may not be for you, but it's a damn fine Michael Mann film; it works less well as an adaptation of the source material:

Maybe it is a "cohesive vision" but that doesn't mean it's a good vision or an interesting vision. I certainly don't find it compelling. I find it grating and amateur. But I will say that I was watching it as an adaptation of the source material, and as you say, that's maybe the thing it's least interested in and worst at. So that didn't help things. But even laying the source material aside, there's just so little that I can sink my teeth into. I've said before I'm not a Michael Mann fan, so it's possible his vision, his language, just isn't for me. We will forever miscommunicate. But god, I really hate Manhunter. I disagree that it's a good representation of Michael Mann.

Just watching that trailer .... man! It just grates on me so much!

I will suggest that Mann's sensibilities don't seem like they would connect with yours. You're a very warm, passionate person, and a lot of the art you like seems to reflect that. Mann's sensibilities are very cold and detached. Even though I personally see a lot of sensuality, even romance, in his work, it is delivered with an icy aesthetic and infused with distance. Doesn't seem like something you would enjoy.

[epilogue]

EDIT: I'm too long winded and repetitive here. Basically the post below sums all this up better than the post that was here.

Good chat, guys!

[epilogue]

Guys, come on...If film is an industrial process, and the auteur attempts to shepherd his vision through that process, I'd say this is an extremely cohesive vision. It may not be for you, but it's a damn fine Michael Mann film; it works less well as an adaptation of the source material:

Maybe it is a "cohesive vision" but that doesn't mean it's a good vision or an interesting vision. I certainly don't find it compelling. I find it grating and amateur. But I will say that I was watching it as an adaptation of the source material, and as you say, that's maybe the thing it's least interested in and worst at. So that didn't help things. But even laying the source material aside, there's just so little that I can sink my teeth into. I've said before I'm not a Michael Mann fan, so it's possible his vision, his language, just isn't for me. We will forever miscommunicate. But god, I really hate Manhunter. I disagree that it's a good representation of Michael Mann.

Just watching that trailer .... man! It just grates on me so much!

I will suggest that Mann's sensibilities don't seem like they would connect with yours. You're a very warm, passionate person, and a lot of the art you like seems to reflect that. Mann's sensibilities are very cold and detached. Even though I personally see a lot of sensuality, even romance, in his work, it is delivered with an icy aesthetic and infused with distance. Doesn't seem like something you would enjoy.

Maybe. Yeah, probably. I think you're right. His sensibilities don't align with mine, typically. That makes the most sense to me and seems to go the furthest toward explaining why I can't seem to get on board with this movie while so many others who I greatly respect love it.

[epilogue]

Man! I don't get to have these discussions enough. Thanks, LV and trag. This was fun.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

Could be. I wouldn't be surprised if true. But Fincher's cinematic language is much more interesting and effective to me. Verm probably hit the nail on the head with his comments about Mann's distance infused icy aesthetic. Fincher certainly doesn't have an icy quality. There isn't the same kind of detachment in his work, either.

[epilogue]

Also, Finch tends to work with talented writers who are great with dialogue. I don't think that writing in general (and dialogue, specifically) is one of Mann's strengths.

Yeah, I just like Fincher's sensibilities more.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

The Social Network, maybe, yeah. I would probably describe The Social Network with many of the same terms and expressions Verm used to describe Manhunter. (Idiosyncratic, uniquely stilted, aloof, detached and infused with distance, etc). Many if not all of those seem to apply. But I think the choices in TSN work far better than they do in Manhunter.

Fight Club, Seven, Panic Room... those are all very warm films to me. Even with the cold wind between the cracks. But maybe it's similar to how Stip thinks Riot Act is cold and resigned against the fight; defeated and distant, while to me Riot Act is very warm and powerful while being actively introspective.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

I haven't seen The Insider in some time, but I do like that one a fair bit more than most of his others. Maybe the score is partly why? I'll have to revisit it and figure it out.

[LoathedVermin72]

I would certainly describe Fincher's aesthetic as icy and detached. But I don't think he distances himself from the characters in the same way Mann does. Fincher invites you inside their heads; just look at the voiceover in Fight Club, or the mother-daughter conflict in Panic Room, or the earnest obsessions of Gyllenhaal in Zodiac. Those are very relatable, human characters that offset Fincher's slick, calculated style.

Mann does not give you such characterizations. He makes movies about esoteric professionals, and he communicates their conflict in subtler ways, usually through visuals. Mann's films and characters have a repressed quality, as if all the outward drama and humanity we're used to seeing in other films is caught somewhere beneath the surface - trapped under the ice, so to speak. Personally, I love that about him, and his films - despite their cold exterior - often have a deep well of empathy at their core. But, to revisit my metaphor: while the water is deep, the layer of ice covering it is thick.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[epilogue]

I would certainly describe Fincher's aesthetic as icy and detached. But I don't think he distances himself from the characters in the same way Mann does. Fincher invites you inside their heads; just look at the voiceover in Fight Club, or the mother-daughter conflict in Panic Room, or the earnest obsessions of Gyllenhaal in Zodiac. Those are very relatable, human characters that offset Fincher's slick, calculated style.

Slick and calculated aren't the same as icy and detached. While agree with everything else you said about Fincher's work (though certainly not Mann's), I don't think Finch is icy and detached. He is slick and calculated, though. Otherwise, good insights, Verm.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[lennytheweedwhacker]

out of sight, while not a great movie, was a lot of fun

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[lennytheweedwhacker]

Out of Sight is a great movie, Len.

i don't think i can go beyond very good

also, i'm not gay but clooney could probably convince me to at least snuggle

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[lennytheweedwhacker]

Out of Sight is a great movie, Len.

i don't think i can go beyond very good

also, i'm not gay but clooney could probably convince me to at least snuggle

Soderbergh is...something else. I still don't quite know how to characterize him, except to say that his films feel at once effortless, breezy, raw, and perfectly composed. Out of Sight is a lighthearted crime caper with excellent dialogue, and it's just executed so well.

i haven't seen all of soderbergh's stuff but i've generally been a big fan of what i have seen

i really need to read some elmore leonard stuff too