Varis wrote:I tried to listen to Kanye over the years but I just can't tough it out. I've got zero interest in ego-tripping, misogynistic, narcissistic crapola.
Don't really know why I even bothered posting in this thread if that's the way I feel. Sorry - carry on.
Not a huge Kanye fan, but for me, him being an asshole really has nothing to do with the art that he puts out.
it does and it doesn't...
for most artists i don't give two fucks if they're douches or not (many are), but his persona and attitude/ego are so ingrained into his lyrics that it makes it VERY very hard to separate the two.
dissident32 wrote:Eh. I mean, it's considerably darker thematically and musically in comparison to all of his other records, but I'm not sure it's this morally bankrupt thing you make it out to be.
Well, sure--I did say it sounded like a corruption of the spirit--I do think the musical elements matter, certainly more so than whether or not Kanye actually has a vacant soul, which is not my place to decide. Like I said in another thread, I appreciate what Kanye is trying to do here--historically, both in the contexts of artists' own careers and musical culture as a whole, stark minimalism has been a stock response to excess, so to me this type of album is a completely sensible follow-up to "Dark Twisted Fantasy." So maybe my issue is that I just don't really care for what Kanye's music is at the core, when you strip all that excess away--for me, his dark impulses work better when they're offset by the buoyancy of more melodic samples, by humorous asides tossed in strictly for humor ("too many Urkels on your team/that's why your wins low," that sort of thing) rather than just clever ways of saying something nasty. Additionally, I think the auto-tune on this record was a huge artistic misstep; "808's and Heartbreak" was a brilliant album, in part, because it was an instance of a master artist challenging himself to create an emotionally affecting record using what was largely accepted as a tacky recording gimmick and outdated beatmaking equipment, and pulling it off better than anyone could have anticipated. It's not a versatile enough artistic device for an artist of Kanye's caliber to use beyond that; listening to it here reminds me of all those Leonard Cohen albums with his deep, poetic verse recited over those chintzy Casio beats. To that end, what momentum this record has just falls apart for me after "New Slaves."
As for the moral implications of the record, I think I'm just reaching the point in my life where I'm prepared to call a spade a spade with this stuff. Context matters, yes, but misogyny is misogyny--the dismissive, subhuman language used to describe women in these songs bothers me a lot more the more women I have in my life whom I wouldn't want to hear spoken about in that manner, and I'm past the point of caring whether being sensitive to that means that I'm not "getting" a certain means of artistic expression. And beyond that even, I just get bored with tedious, redundant subject matter, especially in a genre of music where lyrical focus is paramount; just as I've grown tired of pickup trucks and patriotism in country music (not that I listen to much of it), I've had my fill of animalistic sex and materialism in rap. It's true that, over the years, many records that espouse those very things have become fixtures in my listening routine--those were tastes that were formed in a different frame of mind, which now have the benefit of having a place in my personal history. But I also find myself turning away from a lot of new stuff because it just sounds like the same old shit.
Ultimately, Kanye West has made a lot of music that has affected me over the years, so I'm not prepared to write this album off forever--it hasn't been out long enough to merit that kind of judgment anyway. I do like "Black Skinhead" and "New Slaves." But the rest I'm in no rush to hear again anytime soon.
Thanks for the detailed response. I don't agree with everything you're saying, but I respect where you're coming from.
As a side note, do you really not like I'm Your Man? That's one of my favorite Cohen albums. But I know the '80's production style isn't for everyone.
Varis wrote:I tried to listen to Kanye over the years but I just can't tough it out. I've got zero interest in ego-tripping, misogynistic, narcissistic crapola.
Don't really know why I even bothered posting in this thread if that's the way I feel. Sorry - carry on.
Not a huge Kanye fan, but for me, him being an asshole really has nothing to do with the art that he puts out.
it does and it doesn't...
for most artists i don't give two fucks if they're douches or not (many are), but his persona and attitude/ego are so ingrained into his lyrics that it makes it VERY very hard to separate the two.
Or he's just very good at blurring the line between the two.
for most artists i don't give two fucks if they're douches or not (many are), but his persona and attitude/ego are so ingrained into his lyrics that it makes it VERY very hard to separate the two.
Or he's just very good at blurring the line between the two.
which is basically what i said... i.e.: he's a douche, his persona is douchey, therefore, it's hard to tell where one ends and the other begins
dissident32 wrote:As a side note, do you really not like I'm Your Man? That's one of my favorite Cohen albums. But I know the '80's production style isn't for everyone.
I adore "I'm Your Man"--those are some of Cohen's very best songs. But I do think the production choice is somewhat inappropriate--or at least, strange--for the type of material. I really like how those songs (and the ones from "The Future") were adapted to the stage for his 2008-09 tours, documented on "Live in London" and "Songs From the Road."
bune wrote:So do you feel this is part of getting 'old' wherein people stop trying to listen to new music? Because I like to think I'm still 'with it', but then I remember Abe Simpson said the same thing and I start to wonder.
I wouldn't say I've stopped trying to listen to new music; more than anything I'd say I just don't feel the same pressure to like things for the wrong reasons. I do think there is more to wade through now than there used to be, and I find myself relying more on recommendations and distant kudos from people whose opinions I respect (a few on this board) to direct my listening, where years ago I would just lap up everything I could get my hands on. I don't have that same en masse capacity for processing music anymore.
In general, though, yeah, I do think there's a tendency for one's pursuit of new music to decline as one gets older, for a lot of reasons.
I'm with Kevin Davis on this one. Maybe I used to tolerate the misogyny more as late-teens/early-20s, but I think it's also what you're saying--there used to be a balance, a self-awareness, to some extent, that what he's saying is morally questionable. From what I've heard of this album, that self-awareness/balance is gone, and it's just pretty nasty.
VinylGuy wrote:its really tiresome to see these ¨good guys¨ talking about any political stuff in tv while also being kinda funny and hip and cool....its just...please enough of this shit.
The concept of vanity is so rooted in the idea of a singular narcissist that it can be hard to catch that Kanye speaks almost from a populist perspective — a populist narcissism, if you will. Granted, the thematic focus on community vs. the personal has evolved from College Dropout to Yeezus, but take a second and remember the very first song on Kanye’s first album. He has a chorus of children singing, “We wasn’t supposed to make it past 25 / Joke’s on you, we still alive / Throw your hands up in the sky / And say we don’t care what people say.” If you chalk up his “we don’t care what people say” attitude to simply his ego, then you have missed the point entirely. This isn’t about ego; this is about boldly asserting yourself in a world that is not meant for you. This is a vanity that is rooted in bringing the community up with you. To the ire of some who are so wrapped up in the anxiety of respectability, the message he gives the kids (in front of all these white folks who are listening to his music!) is not to be modest but to unapologetically laugh in the face of a world that does not care about them. The joke’s on you, white America. We made it, and we don’t even have the decency to be grateful. We’re laughing. We dare to laugh.
The concept of vanity is so rooted in the idea of a singular narcissist that it can be hard to catch that Kanye speaks almost from a populist perspective — a populist narcissism, if you will. Granted, the thematic focus on community vs. the personal has evolved from College Dropout to Yeezus, but take a second and remember the very first song on Kanye’s first album. He has a chorus of children singing, “We wasn’t supposed to make it past 25 / Joke’s on you, we still alive / Throw your hands up in the sky / And say we don’t care what people say.” If you chalk up his “we don’t care what people say” attitude to simply his ego, then you have missed the point entirely. This isn’t about ego; this is about boldly asserting yourself in a world that is not meant for you. This is a vanity that is rooted in bringing the community up with you. To the ire of some who are so wrapped up in the anxiety of respectability, the message he gives the kids (in front of all these white folks who are listening to his music!) is not to be modest but to unapologetically laugh in the face of a world that does not care about them. The joke’s on you, white America. We made it, and we don’t even have the decency to be grateful. We’re laughing. We dare to laugh.
The concept of vanity is so rooted in the idea of a singular narcissist that it can be hard to catch that Kanye speaks almost from a populist perspective — a populist narcissism, if you will. Granted, the thematic focus on community vs. the personal has evolved from College Dropout to Yeezus, but take a second and remember the very first song on Kanye’s first album. He has a chorus of children singing, “We wasn’t supposed to make it past 25 / Joke’s on you, we still alive / Throw your hands up in the sky / And say we don’t care what people say.” If you chalk up his “we don’t care what people say” attitude to simply his ego, then you have missed the point entirely. This isn’t about ego; this is about boldly asserting yourself in a world that is not meant for you. This is a vanity that is rooted in bringing the community up with you. To the ire of some who are so wrapped up in the anxiety of respectability, the message he gives the kids (in front of all these white folks who are listening to his music!) is not to be modest but to unapologetically laugh in the face of a world that does not care about them. The joke’s on you, white America. We made it, and we don’t even have the decency to be grateful. We’re laughing. We dare to laugh.
The concept of vanity is so rooted in the idea of a singular narcissist that it can be hard to catch that Kanye speaks almost from a populist perspective — a populist narcissism, if you will. Granted, the thematic focus on community vs. the personal has evolved from College Dropout to Yeezus, but take a second and remember the very first song on Kanye’s first album. He has a chorus of children singing, “We wasn’t supposed to make it past 25 / Joke’s on you, we still alive / Throw your hands up in the sky / And say we don’t care what people say.” If you chalk up his “we don’t care what people say” attitude to simply his ego, then you have missed the point entirely. This isn’t about ego; this is about boldly asserting yourself in a world that is not meant for you. This is a vanity that is rooted in bringing the community up with you. To the ire of some who are so wrapped up in the anxiety of respectability, the message he gives the kids (in front of all these white folks who are listening to his music!) is not to be modest but to unapologetically laugh in the face of a world that does not care about them. The joke’s on you, white America. We made it, and we don’t even have the decency to be grateful. We’re laughing. We dare to laugh.
I'm white.
I think this drastically over analyzes Kanye as an artist. He's a douchebag, and he's always been a douchebag...this naturally comes out in his music. I don't think its really part of any carefully constructed message to white america.
Jorge wrote:I remember I was in Miami when it happened. I was posting from the balcony of my apartment overlooking the beach. And I was having an argument with Adamdude.
