HBO Show: Westworld

[Superblood Wolfmoon]

I've been paying attention to this thread periodically, and I gotta say this doesn't sound like a great show. Sounds like they're fumbling a great situation. Yay or nay?

Yay if you've got nothing else in your to-watch or to-read piles.

Fair enough.

It's just so rough. 11 hours in, you're still not sure whom to root for--and it's not due to clever deconstruction of the idea of "heroes" and "villains," or a po-mo attempt to create a story without anchors, or anything like that. I think the show thinks there are anchors, people and stories that we're supposed to care deeply about, but very little ever sticks. There were so many hours of work committed to this that it's kind of mind-boggling at how it all falls flat in the end.

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Why is there such a desire to have everything figured out after one season, or for the show to follow established storytelling methods? I don't understand why people can't just enjoy the ride of a show without needing every loose end tied up with a nice little bow. The acting is great, the story is intriguing...it's a great show IMO and I looked forward to it every week without needing every little mystery to be solved right away. I think that's part of the enjoyment of a show like this, otherwise you might as well watch "Friends" reruns.

Do you guys read the last chapter of books first too?

[Superblood Wolfmoon]

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Just a suggestion, but maybe watch an episode or two and decide for yourself?

[E.H. Ruddock]

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Just a suggestion, but maybe watch an episode or two and decide for yourself?

seriously, trag.

[Monkey_Driven]

I enjoyed this show, flaws and all. I agree about the Maeve decision at the end being the most important part of the finale.

[Meddle]

I'm still processing the finale, want to write about it a bit more, but I think Maeve's bit was obviously the best part of the finale--not the shoot 'em up that got her out of there, but the reveal that her escape was "programmed" and the big question lingering over her getting off the train: was that programmed as well, or was that an actual choice? Most of the William/Dolores stuff had been telegraphed for weeks, and even though being surprised isn't everything, it also just didn't feel like a satisfying conclusion to our stories (even though this finale was made without knowing if they'd have a second season--you'd think it would've been wrapped up more).

i think that was maeve's choice, which this analysis supports:

The final step (that we could see) in Maeve's updated narrative was "Mainland Infiltration." Bernard said someone had clearly rewritten her script to include the entire escape, and it seemed to lead to her getting on a train for the "mainland."

We are taking that choice of word to mean Westworld and Delos exists on an island somewhere. But more importantly, this might mean that Ford really wanted at least one host to get out of the park. But Maeve made a different choice at the last minute, and she's now stuck with the rest of the sentient hosts.

I agree. That screenshot shows that she follows her script until she gets off the train. Nolan says as much here.

In the finale, when Maeve gets onto that train ... the Steadicam is leading her over. Now, it’s just keeping pace with her as she makes the decision. What we understand in the moment is it’s the first real decision she's made all season. Which is, she's not going to fulfill the script she's been given, which is to take this train wherever it's going, and do whatever else she's programmed to do. She can get off the train. At which point, we shift to handheld camera, which we'd held back on throughout the entire season until one moment with her, and one moment with Dolores, when Teddy comes to rescue her. We get Maeve off the train with a handheld camera. And I remember watching the dailies and almost being shocked at how effective a cinematic technique can be if you hold off on it for long enough. If you dial it in at just the right moment, that suggests she's literally like a train coming off the tracks. We're no longer in programmatic or prescribed behaviors. She's improvising, and we're right there with her.

[Meddle]

I don't get the comparisons to Lost. I stopped watching it in the second season, but I've heard many of the complaints, including that they were making it up as they went along. Supposedly, Nolan had an outline for 5 seasons when he approached HBO.

Westworld wasn't perfect, and I can't say I picked up every detail, but I don't understand some of the complaints. This season could definitely act as a self-contained season if season two were to never happen. There were no gimmicky cliffhangers. They told the story they needed to tell while leaving enough open for a considerably different second season.

[Simple Torture]

I've been paying attention to this thread periodically, and I gotta say this doesn't sound like a great show. Sounds like they're fumbling a great situation. Yay or nay?

Yay if you've got nothing else in your to-watch or to-read piles.

Fair enough.

It's just so rough. 11 hours in, you're still not sure whom to root for--and it's not due to clever deconstruction of the idea of "heroes" and "villains," or a po-mo attempt to create a story without anchors, or anything like that. I think the show thinks there are anchors, people and stories that we're supposed to care deeply about, but very little ever sticks. There were so many hours of work committed to this that it's kind of mind-boggling at how it all falls flat in the end.

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Why is there such a desire to have everything figured out after one season, or for the show to follow established storytelling methods? I don't understand why people can't just enjoy the ride of a show without needing every loose end tied up with a nice little bow. The acting is great, the story is intriguing...it's a great show IMO and I looked forward to it every week without needing every little mystery to be solved right away. I think that's part of the enjoyment of a show like this, otherwise you might as well watch "Friends" reruns.

Do you guys read the last chapter of books first too?

I, uh, didn't say anything there about loose ends being tied up. I'm having trouble with this show because I don't really like any of the characters. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and the visuals and the effort that was put into the series, but it's hard for me to get into any narrative--book, film, story, TV show, etc.--unless I have an investment in character, and Westworld just hasn't given that to me yet. That said, I'll almost certainly watch Season 2 (which probably won't air until Game of Thrones is over, which is sort of mind-boggling to say).

[Mecca]

I enjoyed the fleshing out of the world, but I feel like the upcoming story will essentially be like ex machina into terminator

[Mecca]

So did William kill his brother in law without reprocussion?

[Superblood Wolfmoon]

So did William kill his brother in law without reprocussion?

I didn't think he killed him, just sent him off nekkid into the wilderness to figure his shit out.

[Dscans]

I've been paying attention to this thread periodically, and I gotta say this doesn't sound like a great show. Sounds like they're fumbling a great situation. Yay or nay?

Yay if you've got nothing else in your to-watch or to-read piles.

Fair enough.

It's just so rough. 11 hours in, you're still not sure whom to root for--and it's not due to clever deconstruction of the idea of "heroes" and "villains," or a po-mo attempt to create a story without anchors, or anything like that. I think the show thinks there are anchors, people and stories that we're supposed to care deeply about, but very little ever sticks. There were so many hours of work committed to this that it's kind of mind-boggling at how it all falls flat in the end.

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Why is there such a desire to have everything figured out after one season, or for the show to follow established storytelling methods? I don't understand why people can't just enjoy the ride of a show without needing every loose end tied up with a nice little bow. The acting is great, the story is intriguing...it's a great show IMO and I looked forward to it every week without needing every little mystery to be solved right away. I think that's part of the enjoyment of a show like this, otherwise you might as well watch "Friends" reruns.

Do you guys read the last chapter of books first too?

I, uh, didn't say anything there about loose ends being tied up. I'm having trouble with this show because I don't really like any of the characters. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and the visuals and the effort that was put into the series, but it's hard for me to get into any narrative--book, film, story, TV show, etc.--unless I have an investment in character, and Westworld just hasn't given that to me yet. That said, I'll almost certainly watch Season 2 (which probably won't air until Game of Thrones is over, which is sort of mind-boggling to say).

Do you think it's because all the most relatable characters (Bernard, Maeve, Dolores) all happen to be hosts? And you have trouble feeling empathy for a robot with a programmed personality? Because I do, but at the same time, I think that's kind of the point.

I remember when Logan put a knife thru that old guy's hand, who was a host, and was apathetic toward his pain. I told myself, "that's not real suffering. He's just programmed to respond that way." Then I thought, how is that different humans?

[Bammer]

I've been paying attention to this thread periodically, and I gotta say this doesn't sound like a great show. Sounds like they're fumbling a great situation. Yay or nay?

Yay if you've got nothing else in your to-watch or to-read piles.

Fair enough.

It's just so rough. 11 hours in, you're still not sure whom to root for--and it's not due to clever deconstruction of the idea of "heroes" and "villains," or a po-mo attempt to create a story without anchors, or anything like that. I think the show thinks there are anchors, people and stories that we're supposed to care deeply about, but very little ever sticks. There were so many hours of work committed to this that it's kind of mind-boggling at how it all falls flat in the end.

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Why is there such a desire to have everything figured out after one season, or for the show to follow established storytelling methods? I don't understand why people can't just enjoy the ride of a show without needing every loose end tied up with a nice little bow. The acting is great, the story is intriguing...it's a great show IMO and I looked forward to it every week without needing every little mystery to be solved right away. I think that's part of the enjoyment of a show like this, otherwise you might as well watch "Friends" reruns.

Do you guys read the last chapter of books first too?

I, uh, didn't say anything there about loose ends being tied up. I'm having trouble with this show because I don't really like any of the characters. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and the visuals and the effort that was put into the series, but it's hard for me to get into any narrative--book, film, story, TV show, etc.--unless I have an investment in character, and Westworld just hasn't given that to me yet. That said, I'll almost certainly watch Season 2 (which probably won't air until Game of Thrones is over, which is sort of mind-boggling to say).

Do you think it's because all the most relatable characters (Bernard, Maeve, Dolores) all happen to be hosts? And you have trouble feeling empathy for a robot with a programmed personality? Because I do, but at the same time, I think that's kind of the point.

I remember when Logan put a knife thru that old guy's hand, who was a host, and was apathetic toward his pain. I told myself, "that's not real suffering. He's just programmed to respond that way." Then I thought, how is that different humans?

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[Bi_3]

I just don't enjoy watching those shows. I find it to be a lot of moody suffering and characters making senseless choices just to prolong a certain vibe. And the constant one-upsmanship of the show on itself -- the whole cliffhanger/"tune in next week!" format -- it's not fun for me.

Do you watch AMC's The Killing? It was exactly that, but there was still some really good stuff in there.

If Westworld is different than that, than I'll check it out...

There is some of that, sure, but I still enjoyed WW despite it's frustrations. I think I would have enjoyed it a lot more without this thread (one of the reasons I don't often read the GoT thread).

[E.H. Ruddock]

Oh man, The Killing was such a great fucking show.

[doone]

Oh man, The Killing was such a great fucking show.

for the first season

[Simple Torture]

I've been paying attention to this thread periodically, and I gotta say this doesn't sound like a great show. Sounds like they're fumbling a great situation. Yay or nay?

Yay if you've got nothing else in your to-watch or to-read piles.

Fair enough.

It's just so rough. 11 hours in, you're still not sure whom to root for--and it's not due to clever deconstruction of the idea of "heroes" and "villains," or a po-mo attempt to create a story without anchors, or anything like that. I think the show thinks there are anchors, people and stories that we're supposed to care deeply about, but very little ever sticks. There were so many hours of work committed to this that it's kind of mind-boggling at how it all falls flat in the end.

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Why is there such a desire to have everything figured out after one season, or for the show to follow established storytelling methods? I don't understand why people can't just enjoy the ride of a show without needing every loose end tied up with a nice little bow. The acting is great, the story is intriguing...it's a great show IMO and I looked forward to it every week without needing every little mystery to be solved right away. I think that's part of the enjoyment of a show like this, otherwise you might as well watch "Friends" reruns.

Do you guys read the last chapter of books first too?

I, uh, didn't say anything there about loose ends being tied up. I'm having trouble with this show because I don't really like any of the characters. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and the visuals and the effort that was put into the series, but it's hard for me to get into any narrative--book, film, story, TV show, etc.--unless I have an investment in character, and Westworld just hasn't given that to me yet. That said, I'll almost certainly watch Season 2 (which probably won't air until Game of Thrones is over, which is sort of mind-boggling to say).

Do you think it's because all the most relatable characters (Bernard, Maeve, Dolores) all happen to be hosts? And you have trouble feeling empathy for a robot with a programmed personality? Because I do, but at the same time, I think that's kind of the point.

I remember when Logan put a knife thru that old guy's hand, who was a host, and was apathetic toward his pain. I told myself, "that's not real suffering. He's just programmed to respond that way." Then I thought, how is that different humans?

Not surprisingly, a great post. I'd respond by saying that I think the reactions I had to the random hosts being slaughtered are about the same as the reactions I have when faceless soldiers get killed on Game Of Thrones, or when a stormtrooper gets shot in Star Wars--they're just stock characters, and while I might feel a twinge if they go down in a particularly gruesome way, it's not like I was invested in their fate. The named hosts, on the other hand, I feel like the text does want us to feel for them, to root for them and hope that they can achieve something. I think the difficulty in getting invested goes beyond the fact that their personalities are programmed: the fact that every time we saw them die we knew they could just be stitched back up and sent back out made the decisions they made and the things that they learned have a lot less weight; if they made a mistake, they could just try again (people have used videogame metaphors all around this show, so I don't want it to sound like I'm aping anyone else, but it is sort of like a "Load Save" option that takes the tension out of so many games).

If they were human, they'd get just one chance to get things right, and all of their choices would be given so much more weight. But they'd still need to be deep, interesting characters that I cared about. Remember when Elsie got strangled? Remember when gruff security guard was attacked by the Ghost Nation? Those are real people in danger, but it's not like I was on the edge of my seat rooting for them. As people have been saying, Maeve is probably the one character whose arc is intriguing at this point to me, because she's the only one who's gone against her programming. When the next season opens and Dolores and co. are ripping shit up, if Maeve is trying to find a middle ground between humans and hosts, I think I'll be even more interested.

[Dscans]

I've been paying attention to this thread periodically, and I gotta say this doesn't sound like a great show. Sounds like they're fumbling a great situation. Yay or nay?

Yay if you've got nothing else in your to-watch or to-read piles.

Fair enough.

It's just so rough. 11 hours in, you're still not sure whom to root for--and it's not due to clever deconstruction of the idea of "heroes" and "villains," or a po-mo attempt to create a story without anchors, or anything like that. I think the show thinks there are anchors, people and stories that we're supposed to care deeply about, but very little ever sticks. There were so many hours of work committed to this that it's kind of mind-boggling at how it all falls flat in the end.

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Why is there such a desire to have everything figured out after one season, or for the show to follow established storytelling methods? I don't understand why people can't just enjoy the ride of a show without needing every loose end tied up with a nice little bow. The acting is great, the story is intriguing...it's a great show IMO and I looked forward to it every week without needing every little mystery to be solved right away. I think that's part of the enjoyment of a show like this, otherwise you might as well watch "Friends" reruns.

Do you guys read the last chapter of books first too?

I, uh, didn't say anything there about loose ends being tied up. I'm having trouble with this show because I don't really like any of the characters. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and the visuals and the effort that was put into the series, but it's hard for me to get into any narrative--book, film, story, TV show, etc.--unless I have an investment in character, and Westworld just hasn't given that to me yet. That said, I'll almost certainly watch Season 2 (which probably won't air until Game of Thrones is over, which is sort of mind-boggling to say).

Do you think it's because all the most relatable characters (Bernard, Maeve, Dolores) all happen to be hosts? And you have trouble feeling empathy for a robot with a programmed personality? Because I do, but at the same time, I think that's kind of the point.

I remember when Logan put a knife thru that old guy's hand, who was a host, and was apathetic toward his pain. I told myself, "that's not real suffering. He's just programmed to respond that way." Then I thought, how is that different humans?

Not surprisingly, a great post. I'd respond by saying that I think the reactions I had to the random hosts being slaughtered are about the same as the reactions I have when faceless soldiers get killed on Game Of Thrones, or when a stormtrooper gets shot in Star Wars--they're just stock characters, and while I might feel a twinge if they go down in a particularly gruesome way, it's not like I was invested in their fate. The named hosts, on the other hand, I feel like the text does want us to feel for them, to root for them and hope that they can achieve something. I think the difficulty in getting invested goes beyond the fact that their personalities are programmed: the fact that every time we saw them die we knew they could just be stitched back up and sent back out made the decisions they made and the things that they learned have a lot less weight; if they made a mistake, they could just try again (people have used videogame metaphors all around this show, so I don't want it to sound like I'm aping anyone else, but it is sort of like a "Load Save" option that takes the tension out of so many games).

If they were human, they'd get just one chance to get things right, and all of their choices would be given so much more weight. But they'd still need to be deep, interesting characters that I cared about. Remember when Elsie got strangled? Remember when gruff security guard was attacked by the Ghost Nation? Those are real people in danger, but it's not like I was on the edge of my seat rooting for them. As people have been saying, Maeve is probably the one character whose arc is intriguing at this point to me, because she's the only one who's gone against her programming. When the next season opens and Dolores and co. are ripping shit up, if Maeve is trying to find a middle ground between humans and hosts, I think I'll be even more interested.

[Superblood Wolfmoon]

I've been paying attention to this thread periodically, and I gotta say this doesn't sound like a great show. Sounds like they're fumbling a great situation. Yay or nay?

Yay if you've got nothing else in your to-watch or to-read piles.

Fair enough.

It's just so rough. 11 hours in, you're still not sure whom to root for--and it's not due to clever deconstruction of the idea of "heroes" and "villains," or a po-mo attempt to create a story without anchors, or anything like that. I think the show thinks there are anchors, people and stories that we're supposed to care deeply about, but very little ever sticks. There were so many hours of work committed to this that it's kind of mind-boggling at how it all falls flat in the end.

Yea, this really sounds like Lost all over again. Fart noise.

Why is there such a desire to have everything figured out after one season, or for the show to follow established storytelling methods? I don't understand why people can't just enjoy the ride of a show without needing every loose end tied up with a nice little bow. The acting is great, the story is intriguing...it's a great show IMO and I looked forward to it every week without needing every little mystery to be solved right away. I think that's part of the enjoyment of a show like this, otherwise you might as well watch "Friends" reruns.

Do you guys read the last chapter of books first too?

I, uh, didn't say anything there about loose ends being tied up. I'm having trouble with this show because I don't really like any of the characters. I can appreciate the craftsmanship and the visuals and the effort that was put into the series, but it's hard for me to get into any narrative--book, film, story, TV show, etc.--unless I have an investment in character, and Westworld just hasn't given that to me yet. That said, I'll almost certainly watch Season 2 (which probably won't air until Game of Thrones is over, which is sort of mind-boggling to say).

Do you think it's because all the most relatable characters (Bernard, Maeve, Dolores) all happen to be hosts? And you have trouble feeling empathy for a robot with a programmed personality? Because I do, but at the same time, I think that's kind of the point.

I remember when Logan put a knife thru that old guy's hand, who was a host, and was apathetic toward his pain. I told myself, "that's not real suffering. He's just programmed to respond that way." Then I thought, how is that different humans?

Not surprisingly, a great post. I'd respond by saying that I think the reactions I had to the random hosts being slaughtered are about the same as the reactions I have when faceless soldiers get killed on Game Of Thrones, or when a stormtrooper gets shot in Star Wars--they're just stock characters, and while I might feel a twinge if they go down in a particularly gruesome way, it's not like I was invested in their fate. The named hosts, on the other hand, I feel like the text does want us to feel for them, to root for them and hope that they can achieve something. I think the difficulty in getting invested goes beyond the fact that their personalities are programmed: the fact that every time we saw them die we knew they could just be stitched back up and sent back out made the decisions they made and the things that they learned have a lot less weight; if they made a mistake, they could just try again (people have used videogame metaphors all around this show, so I don't want it to sound like I'm aping anyone else, but it is sort of like a "Load Save" option that takes the tension out of so many games).

If they were human, they'd get just one chance to get things right, and all of their choices would be given so much more weight. But they'd still need to be deep, interesting characters that I cared about. Remember when Elsie got strangled? Remember when gruff security guard was attacked by the Ghost Nation? Those are real people in danger, but it's not like I was on the edge of my seat rooting for them. As people have been saying, Maeve is probably the one character whose arc is intriguing at this point to me, because she's the only one who's gone against her programming. When the next season opens and Dolores and co. are ripping shit up, if Maeve is trying to find a middle ground between humans and hosts, I think I'll be even more interested.

[Superblood Wolfmoon]

I'm wondering about how involved the "control room" people are in all of this. There's a few scenes in episode 4, like when MIB is breaking out of prison and we see the control room being asked for an explosive effect, that make it seem as if there's very little that can happen off-script. Yet we see lots of stuff throughout that seems to be happpening "off the radar." I'm not sure anything happens without the park staff's knowledge.