The 45th POTUS - Donald J. Trump

[digster]

The way Trump has just made mincemeat of Republican orthodoxy, and the way in which the party has followed like a lapdog, has been pretty interesting to watch. The idea that that party would be putting up a defense, even if passive and tacit, of Russia meddling in U.S. elections is just laughable in comparison to their past saber rattling. I find this even more striking...

https://morningconsult.com/wp-content/u ... rier_2.png

That's from a Politico poll, taken after the Carrier deal. It says Republicans, by higher percentages than any one else in the country, favor presidents directly getting involved in private industry. Not Trump voters, Republicans. That's not just a flip-flop, it's basically burning down everything that makes a Republican a Republican, at least in the modern era.

[digster]

Maybe we're not looking at this thing as a bigger picture. The thought process seems to end with "the Russians simply wanted Trump elected." Maybe we should be asking ourselves, "Then what?" Perhaps they wanted him elected so they could then release all the garbage they have on him in order to create chaos and possibly a Constitutional crisis, completely upending American Democracy as we know it. Imagine a trove of Trump-related information coming out days before inauguration and what that might result in. I don't think we're giving the Russians enough credit for playing a longer game than just influencing an election.
If you think about it this way, it becomes less about a Trump presidency helping Russia and more about him being the perfect short-sighted and egotistical candidate to pull something like that off.

I would imagine they supported him because they seem him as an easy mark. And truth be told, despite all of the talk about his unpredictable nature, he's actually fairly predictable. He's easily flattered and malleable. Couple that with the fact that he doesn't really have any interest in acting as a check on Russia, and he's kind of perfect for Putin.

[BurtReynolds]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

[tragabigzanda]

I know this is sort of a ignorant and small-minded way of looking at things, but there's a part of me that sees these sorts of international power struggles as hopelessly outdated. The global economy and world trade have effectively linked us all together via the production chain, and a bad trade deal (for example) for Russia is ultimately a bad deal for the rest of the world. And the results of the "economic winners and losers" way of doing business have already proven to breed violent contempt for our country. So I'm sort of rolling my eyes at the Russia thing, just feeling like "Ugh, our planet is just going to kill itself anyway, so whatever."

[BurtReynolds]

I think Russia feels left out of that globalist structure though, and they probably are.

[dimejinky99]

'America sure is having some bad luck. It's almost like it's built on some ancient Indian burial ground.'

[digster]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

[BurtReynolds]

Putin really is running circles around the West. He's winning everywhere: Syria, Ukraine, their economy is humming along despite western attempts to stop it, etc.

Western democracies are really churning out some dog shit leaders, lately. So out of touch with reality.

[tragabigzanda]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

[BurtReynolds]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Apparently our masters in Washington forgot.

[digster]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

[tragabigzanda]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be critical of you and Burt, more just trying to make the point that all the politicians' hand-wringing over this Russian thing strikes me as fairly silly given our own country's past attempts at global control.

[digster]

Yeah, I think I'm thinking about the fact that Putin seems to view Trump as a unique opportunity, and how that may manifest itself going forward. Trump's continued head in sand approach to not believing Russia had a finger on the scale is expected, but Trump's comments about NATO during the election may make Putin feel as if the calvary won't be called should he start pressing on Estonia or vulnerable spots in eastern Europe.

[McParadigm]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be critical of you and Burt, more just trying to make the point that all the politicians' hand-wringing over this Russian thing strikes me as fairly silly given our own country's past attempts at global control.

It's not fairly silly. Precedence alone does not equate to conventionality. Its like saying "eh, it's pretty silly to complain about being invaded. We invade countries all the time."

[Bi_3]

I know this is sort of a ignorant and small-minded way of looking at things, but there's a part of me that sees these sorts of international power struggles as hopelessly outdated. The global economy and world trade have effectively linked us all together via the production chain, and a bad trade deal (for example) for Russia is ultimately a bad deal for the rest of the world. And the results of the "economic winners and losers" way of doing business have already proven to breed violent contempt for our country. So I'm sort of rolling my eyes at the Russia thing, just feeling like "Ugh, our planet is just going to kill itself anyway, so whatever."

It's not small minded at all. It's also why the whole "about to start a war with China" thing was so overblown. The globalist stability plan is to interweave economies so that we are at very little risk of a major conflict.

[BurtReynolds]

Yeah, I think I'm thinking about the fact that Putin seems to view Trump as a unique opportunity, and how that may manifest itself going forward. Trump's continued head in sand approach to not believing Russia had a finger on the scale is expected, but Trump's comments about NATO during the election may make Putin feel as if the calvary won't be called should he start pressing on Estonia or vulnerable spots in eastern Europe.

I get the feeling the cavalry wasn't gonna be called regardless. We have no spine (or brains) to stop Russia from doing whatever they want in eastern Europe or the middle East anymore.

[tragabigzanda]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be critical of you and Burt, more just trying to make the point that all the politicians' hand-wringing over this Russian thing strikes me as fairly silly given our own country's past attempts at global control.

It's not fairly silly. Precedence alone does not equate to conventionality. Its like saying "eh, it's pretty silly to complain about being invaded. We invade countries all the time."

And yet this remains my primary outlook. Even after 9/11, I felt like "This is a tragedy that other countries experience all the time." Of course I have empathy for people who suffer in any capacity, and the hostile takeover or hijacking of any country's sovereignty by another is awful. But it's not like it's going to change in my lifetime. So yea, unfortunately, I do sort of view this as conventional, business-as-usual stuff.

[digster]

So ExxonMobil CEO Tillerson as Sec. of State and John Bolton as his deputy?

http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-el ... ry-n694371

[McParadigm]

Been a growing amount of this type of stuff from hardline Trunp fans:

He's handling it well though...

[McParadigm]

On the other hand, major powers routinely play these games with their rivals, and the fact that we've become so lazy at defending against them under our recent administrations is pretty alarming. Russia attempting to influence the election shouldn't be news. Our incompetence and susceptibility should be.

Eh, kind of. I don't really recall a country ever trying to tip the scales in one direction, though. Should this news be true, Russia either was able to have an impact on our elections for the first time on this scale and will continue to throw monkey wrenches in the future, or they saw Trump as a unique opportunity for them, in a way that previous presidential elections have not been.

You guys recall that the US has installed puppet regimes in other countries, through violence, on numerous occasions, right?

Sure...I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. I should have said I was specifically referring to US presidential elections.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be critical of you and Burt, more just trying to make the point that all the politicians' hand-wringing over this Russian thing strikes me as fairly silly given our own country's past attempts at global control.

It's not fairly silly. Precedence alone does not equate to conventionality. Its like saying "eh, it's pretty silly to complain about being invaded. We invade countries all the time."

And yet this remains my primary outlook. Even after 9/11, I felt like "This is a tragedy that other countries experience all the time." Of course I have empathy for people who suffer in any capacity, and the hostile takeover or hijacking of any country's sovereignty by another is awful. But it's not like it's going to change in my lifetime. So yea, unfortunately, I do sort of view this as conventional, business-as-usual stuff.

I understand, and you're right. But the scope is different. The US uses espionage to control elections, absolutely. And so do China and Russia and England. but China doesn't take hold of England's government, and the US doesn't install a puppet government in China. One major power controlling or deeply influencing another major power...or ANY nation having a substantial foothold in the workings of what is still in many ways the most influential nation in earth, is about more than one nation's people and rights.

I'm not talking about whether it's less criminal or dispicable or whatever somewhere else...I'm talking about the scope of worldwide impact. Espionage in world affairs is every day business, the way war is every day business. But some events in any war transcend the ordinary to become truly historical.