Re: The 47th POTUS - Donald J. Trump

[Strat]

Perfect timing from Bill Maher. Nails it about liberal PC and why we lose elections like this

[BurtReynolds]

Perfect timing from Bill Maher. Nails it about liberal PC and why we lose elections like this

The element of the left that does that kind if idiotic shit is so entrenched it might be too late. One can hope they eat themselves before the next election.

[BurtReynolds]

Of course, the main purpose of this kind of paranoid bullshit is not to warn people about evil nazis in their midst, but rather to associate their enemies with white power movements in the minds of civilians. It's purposeful. But besides the fact that it is immensely fucking evil and anti-liberal, it also doesn't work anymore. As a tactic it fails to help that cause. In fact, it hurts it. This is the primary reason democrats are losing the election, and this ridiculous tragedy plays itself out over and over again.

Calling Trump's rhetoric out for what it is may lose Democrats every single election from here on out, but that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not something is true or not. Politicians may need to watch their step, but not everyone.

I was speaking specifically about my post above that one and not just "Trump is nazi" posts. It's the broad (mistaken) generalizations and mass condemnations that turn people away. And it should because of course it should. I'd call it PC, but I don't think that's what it is. It's something much worse.

[wease]

Trump's border talk is nothing but thinly veiled racism. He is intentionally inciting hatred toward POC, particularly Hispanics. The narrative is palpable, and it isn't new.

Predictably, I don't buy it.

Are all actions by a country to exert control over its borders necessarily racist? The whole point of a border is to exclude, to discriminate.

He is publishing a weekly list of crimes committed by illegal immigrants. He referred to immigrants as rapists. He used the phrase "bad hombres." How much more transparently awful can he be? That is building a false and hateful narrative if I've ever seen it.

With respect to the first, I don't necessarily find anything objectionable about that - as I said when it was discussed earlier, I might do depending on the amount of detail provided (I'd hate to see people acting as vigilantes, etc.)

With respect to the second two, I don't think you can necessarily equate comments made during the campaign to policy decisions. I've said before I think Trump is vulgar, crass and personally unpleasant, those are two clear examples of just that.

Just as its possible to support strong immigration and border policies and not bear any ill-will towards immigrants, it's possible to find some of Trump's policies and positions appealing without finding anything to like in his personality or public statements.

There is a layer of understanding that seems to be lacking from your interpretation of all this, but that absense is very understandable.

The majority of American media glosses over this, and the ones that do address it tend to take a very smarmy approach, but you cannot understand what is happening here without understanding the popularity and rise of Steve Bannon. Without that...without real exposure to the dog whistle phrases, the lexicon of the movement, and the opportunity to sit among Breitbart-fed American citizens who feel that you are "safe" to open up to...you cannot understand any of this.

I shit on the Midwest a lot. I have a solid reason: it really sucks. I lived there for over 30 years. But I was raised in a community where some of the oldest people still spoke German as a first language. People who fought in WW2 and couldn't write home, ever, because their families never learned functional English. German letters home would be a problem. And I spent my summers going between Texas and Louisiana, where my dad's family was from. Scots, whose ancestors came over early and became wealthy slaveowners. Whose descendants openly wish that was still the way of things.

It's not a meme to say that these people believe that Israel "belongs" to the US right now, or that Hillary Clinton practices dark magic. It's not a joke. It's not just a way that they demonize their opponents. They believe it in the same way you believe that the earth is not the only body in space. It's that true.

These are people who, over time, have been cultivated into only accepting information from a specific source. They saw Rush Limbaugh's TV show in the 90's. Then they watched Fox. Then Fox pointed them towards Breitbart. And the confirmation bias exploded.

There are key phrases, or terminological absences, that these people identify on a variety of topics, and which act as silent communiques. They are now coming from the White House, and they all reek of Bannon.

The value of these things is that the group "gets" it, but the broader population either doesnt or can't grab anything solid. Between my wife and myself, we were awash with excited texts/emails/social media trash about the use of the word "innocents" instead of "Jewish people" in today's statement before the media even had a chance to latch on...because Bannon's people know that language. It's one of many ways that Trump's words and policies have melded to match Breitbart culture. And no small surprise, since we are increasingly hearing leaks from the White House claiming that Bannon and crew have dominated the chosing and writing of executive orders....and even cowrote (or wrote) the inaugural address (which was purely a restating of the worldview they have sold for years).

There is no interpretation of the events this last week that avoids the size, tenacity, or common language of that crowd, and is also accurate. None. The ability to be racist, nationalist, sexist, and speak of related goals without exposure is a primary appeal of this set. Donald Trump could make insane claims about crowd sizes, because the Breitbart crew BELIEVE IT. That's why I shared that research...because it demonstrated the scope of a dominating bias that is real and is being beaconed to, every day.

You can argue that strong borders are good, and I'll listen. I happen to think that much stronger borders mixed with less stringent immigration policies would be a good thing. But it is unavoidably fallacitic to propose that racial constructs are not right at the core of why these things are being pushed, and how they are being communicated to the base. Whether you agree with some of the policies or not, rationales and goals are being communicated here that your words do not imply recognition of.

This is also why the women's march was so important, and why more and more visible, unfiltered, social and media response is important. A worldview has claimed power here that is truly a minority, but has been tightly contained for so long...been so convinced of its dominance and prevalence...that it can't even interpret pictures of crowd sizes.

That it will believe an old woman who lives in the public eye is part of a pedophile rape ring operating out of a pizza parlor.

For real.

If you speculate on who Trump really is, but ignore his perfection of the language of that crowd, then you've already missed the boat....because you are not understanding the reasons for his actions, and therefore are not understanding what their natural conclusions may end up being.

Can we rate posts? Jesus Christ, you hit the nail on the head. This is A+ stuff here. You've just described about 85% of the population of my area. Bravo. Brav-fucking-o, man.

[epilogue]

Reading McP's posts in this thread has me reconsidering every thought/opinion/post I've ever had/made. I used to think he was a pedantic bully who tried to make me feel bad by acting "holier-than-thou" and ripping others down to make himself feel smug and superior.

Now... I realize he was probably right. I'm the asshole. My opinions are terrible and the way I support them is vapid and clownish. McP is a goddamn national treasure and I need to shut up more often and listen.

Spoiler: show

There is absolutely zero snark/sarcasm in this post, btw. I'm dead serious.

[BurtReynolds]

Reading McP's posts in this thread has me reconsidering every thought/opinion/post I've ever had/made. I used to think he was a pedantic bully who tried to make me feel bad by acting "holier-than-thou" and ripping others down to make himself feel smug and superior.

Now... I realize he was probably right. I'm the asshole. My opinions are terrible and the way I support them is vapid and clownish. McP is a goddamn national treasure and I need to shut up more often and listen.

Spoiler: show

There is absolutely zero snark/sarcasm in this post, btw. I'm dead serious.

Yeah he's totally made me realize that 85% of red state towns believe Hillary is a literal witch and that slavery should come back. He backs up every belief you have. What have you reconsidered?

Spoiler: show

There is a lot of snark in this post.

[dimejinky99]

So even non brown people with valid visas and green cards are now being denied entry to the US.
no announcement about it or anything.

This continues you'll see countries respond and Americans being denied visas and access to those countries.

[bada]

All I know is because of Trump I can't take that trip to Iran I planned. Thanks a lot Donald.

[Rangi Guy]

I'm just glad that the US isn't on my radar at the moment as a place to go and visit

Mrs Rangi probably couldn't get in anyway thanks to the colour of her skin

[Strat]

Reading McP's posts in this thread has me reconsidering every thought/opinion/post I've ever had/made. I used to think he was a pedantic bully who tried to make me feel bad by acting "holier-than-thou" and ripping others down to make himself feel smug and superior.

Now... I realize he was probably right. I'm the asshole. My opinions are terrible and the way I support them is vapid and clownish. McP is a goddamn national treasure and I need to shut up more often and listen.

Spoiler: show

There is absolutely zero snark/sarcasm in this post, btw. I'm dead serious.

Yeah he's totally made me realize that 85% of red state towns believe Hillary is a literal witch and that slavery should come back. He backs up every belief you have. What have you reconsidered?

Spoiler: show

There is a lot of snark in this post.

Burt. Do you think there is absolutely any truth or even experience in McP's post? Or is he just a libtard who falls for the mainstream media?

[bada]

More like lamestream media am I right?

[Strat]

More like lamestream media am I right?

[BurtReynolds]

Reading McP's posts in this thread has me reconsidering every thought/opinion/post I've ever had/made. I used to think he was a pedantic bully who tried to make me feel bad by acting "holier-than-thou" and ripping others down to make himself feel smug and superior.

Now... I realize he was probably right. I'm the asshole. My opinions are terrible and the way I support them is vapid and clownish. McP is a goddamn national treasure and I need to shut up more often and listen.

Spoiler: show

There is absolutely zero snark/sarcasm in this post, btw. I'm dead serious.

Yeah he's totally made me realize that 85% of red state towns believe Hillary is a literal witch and that slavery should come back. He backs up every belief you have. What have you reconsidered?

Spoiler: show

There is a lot of snark in this post.

Burt. Do you think there is absolutely any truth or even experience in McP's post? Or is he just a libtard who falls for the mainstream media?

Sure. I also think he has biases that he defends by saying he grew up in a red state, and ignores the Left's biases. Then he presents himself as an authority on the subject to some crazy Australian monarchist.

I have to imagine that talking politics with someone who believes the vast majority of red staters believe in witches and slavery is roughly equivalent to talking politics with someone who believes in actual witches and slavery. Is it any wonder those same people believe the country is swarming with secret nazis who are getting orders via secret code from Steve Bannon?

Maybe a slight improvement.

Anyway, if I don't attack the Right here it's because I don't feel much need to: That base is well covered by everyone else. Rest assured that I feel practically the same about the right as everyone else here, but I believe the Left is nearly as bad. There are no heroes in this story. If you generally only see things in Blue Team vs. Red Team terms, you won't agree.

I also agree that Rush Limbaugh is the source of a great deal of the country's problems today.

[BurtReynolds]

More like lamestream media am I right?

#fakenewsalternativefacts

[Strat]

Reading McP's posts in this thread has me reconsidering every thought/opinion/post I've ever had/made. I used to think he was a pedantic bully who tried to make me feel bad by acting "holier-than-thou" and ripping others down to make himself feel smug and superior.

Now... I realize he was probably right. I'm the asshole. My opinions are terrible and the way I support them is vapid and clownish. McP is a goddamn national treasure and I need to shut up more often and listen.

Spoiler: show

There is absolutely zero snark/sarcasm in this post, btw. I'm dead serious.

Yeah he's totally made me realize that 85% of red state towns believe Hillary is a literal witch and that slavery should come back. He backs up every belief you have. What have you reconsidered?

Spoiler: show

There is a lot of snark in this post.

Burt. Do you think there is absolutely any truth or even experience in McP's post? Or is he just a libtard who falls for the mainstream media?

Sure. I also think he has biases that he defends by saying he grew up in a red state, and ignores the Left's biases. Then he presents himself as an authority on the subject to some crazy Australian monarchist.

I have to imagine that talking politics with someone who believes the vast majority of red staters believe in witches and slavery is roughly equivalent to talking politics with someone who believes in actual witches. Is it any wonder those same people believe there are secret nazis getting orders via secret code from Steve Bannon?

Maybe a slight improvement.

Anyway, if I don't attack the Right here it's because I don't feel much need to: That base is well covered by everyone else. Rest assured that I feel practically the same about the right as everyone else here, but I believe the Left is nearly as bad. There are no heroes in this story. If you generally only see things in Blue Team vs. Red Team terms, you won't agree.

I also agree that Rush Limbaugh is the source of a great deal of the country's problems today.

I actually blame the internet.

I agree with your stance on it though not to your extent. The left loses because we demonize opposing views and assume everyone else is sa racist hick. I think we are losing that viewpoint a bit and i hope over the next 4 years we learn how to actually reach across the aisle. The difference, i feel, is that often times the shoe definitely fits more often than the other way around. Much of the rights viewpoints are becoming archaic and the world is changing. The left is forgetting about those, i get it, but also the world is changing and that wont stop.

[Strat]

and also if you are part of a group that denies scientific data and facts, then fuck you. Slants and opinions are fine but....

Whatever. Im going hiking. I hope RM is here when i get back.

[BurtReynolds]

I'm also less interested in the talking points of the left and right (I know them already) and more concerned with the divide between the two, and the ever accelerating width of that divide. No one is talking about that, yet it's far more dangerous than any policy stance of either party. No one will care about which bathrooms you're allowed to use when there is blood in the streets. Maybe it's just too late.

[Strat]

I'm also less interested in the talking points of the left and right (I know them already) and more concerned with the divide between the two, and the ever accelerating width of that divide. No one is talking about that, yet it's far more dangerous than any policy stance of either party. No one will care about which bathrooms you're allowed to use when there is blood in the streets. Maybe it's just too late.

Every other empire has fallen, perhaps its our turn. You should definitely move to the mountains.

[Wendy Carlos's Twin]

It cracks me up that Steve Bannon, a nazi sympathizer with no government experience, is writing Trump's executive orders. But calling Trump a nazi is just "liberal hysteria" that hurts their cause. Unbelievable.

[BurtReynolds]

Wendy Carlos's Twin everybody.