Lightning Bolt: the official album thread

[malice]

My preference for a particular artist or musician will earn them goodwill and I'll be willing to follow them paths I wouldn't normally take, but that's where it stops for me. Saying "this piece of music is inherently more enjoyable because it's this guy whose records I buy all the time" is strange to me.

So you don't prefer like Sinatra's version of The Way You Look Tonight to Tony Bennett's?

Maybe I would because I think it's a better version. What does it have to do with anything?

Don't you have favourite singers who you like to hear sing?

Of course I do. And if what you're getting at is "I like Eddie's voice, so I like hearing him sing this punk music", fuckin A. That's great. What I'm a bit bothered by is people who are saying "this is a great song, PJ is back" who wouldn't give this sort of music a second thought otherwise. And then folks who said, earlier in the thread, "of course I'll enjoy a song more if it's Pearl Jam". It rubs me the wrong way, it feels inauthentic.
McP put it very well earlier in the thread:

I think the real point is that there is literally nothing that this song is doing that is not a part of what those bands/people spent decades perfecting. If you had played this for me and said "Check out this Bad Religion cover that Pearl Jam did for a tribute record," I'd go "Huh...yeah, wow. Where is that song from? I don't remember it." And understand that I realize the enormous overlap that exists in rock music, and how little real stylistic variation there is out there...but this song draws in on its influences with an exactness that goes beyond even the most sycophantic homage. It doesn't do anything that makes it not be a song by those bands, except have a different name on the artwork.

That's fine, I suppose. Like I've said, I think the right context could make this song really work. I'll have to wait and see. But it seems silly to have such fervent support for a song on a board that rarely mentions all those acts that have spent many years doing the EXACT SAME thing, often better.

This is what tends to drive me crazy about you and McP though. Sometimes a song demands to be turned up without an essay on genre placement.

good luck on that

[Lament]

Pearl Jam (like any other massive act; Springsteen, U2, Radiohead) has a significant group of fans who are Pearl Jam fans before they're music fans. They're the ones who come here and can't believe everyone isn't more grateful that Pearl Jam deems us worthy to exist in the same universe as them. I have no doubt that all of these fans a. Love this song, and b. Would turn it off 30 seconds into if they didn't know it was Pearl Jam, so I totally think that side of the argument is very valid. Over at the Pit I would imagine this is probably 85% of the people posting over there. Pearl Jam is like their favorite sports team.

That being said, there seems to be a really high percentage of fans here who are genuinely music fans, and probably do like it because of the quality. I mean, if you are a true, dyed in the wool music fan who had their gateway opened by Pearl Jam, you absolutely at the very least have some familiarity with Bad Religion, either from seeing them open for Pearl Jam or for owning Recipe for Hate cause Ed is on it. I tend to believe that most people on here who like the song genuinely like it, and would still like it if it were a Bad Religion or a Husker Du song.

Surely that's a false dichotomy.

You don't believe there's a difference between Pearl Jam fans who are first and foremost music fans and music fans who are first and foremost Pearl Jam fans?

[stip]

I wonder if Lightning Bolt is going to be the album where spenno and I finally get together.

[evenslow]

I wonder if Lightning Bolt is going to be the album where spenno and I finally get together.

He's either getting laid or someone took over his account.

[verb_to_trust]

There's also no telling how people will feel about this song weeks and months from now (obviously, I suppose). S/T and Backspacer both had relatively positive reactions initially, at least in comparison to how they came to be perceived after the dust had settled. Though this can be a critical lot, there's definitely a 'new PJ glow' that accompanies new releases.

Oh yeah, and most of the times those new releases become " this is shit!!! they lost it!! after a few years.

I agree with this whole " music is subjective" general idea, and of course we are going to enjoy more the music from the artist we care about.
But, again, i also agree with The Platypus in his original post. Most of you seem to " love" this new song too much just because its from PJ.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I am not seeing a lot of ZOMG BEST SONG EVAR!!! posts around here. Most seem to think its okay and I think its unfair to say its because of it being a 'Pearl Jam' song. I for one, am way too jaded for that.....

[stip]

spenno, I think this got lost in the more interesting conversation, but what do you like about the Lightning Bolt title (or King Animal for that matter)?

[Jorge]

What I'm getting at isn't particularly related to stip's position that a fan often carries the weight of their personal history with that artist with them when approaching new material. My point is simply that you could get Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam (if those are the two bands we're saddled with for this exercise) to vamp on an A chord for 10 minutes and it's still going to sound different. Same tempo, same notes but the end result is discernibly not the same. I can quite happily listen to the rehearsals and offcuts from bands I really love and get more enjoyment out of them than I do another band's most outstanding work. I just like the noise they make.

Bmac is right, we've splintered off into a bunch of different arguments, but I want to be clear about this one. I agree that the end result of that jam session in A would sound very different. But I believe that difference comes from the specifics of each band's playing style as much as it comes from their gear setup, not from some untraceable energy called "The Feel". I believe, in the case of "Mind Your Manners", you're talking about a performance that couldn't be more devoid of character (apart from the guitar solo). I feel like they brought in the rawk guitarists from Central Casting and set them up around Matt Cameron. If what you're telling me is "I enjoy the song because of the subtleties in Pearl Jam's playing style", I'm gonna say I don't hear it. What some people were saying earlier in the thread was "if two different bands play a song I've never heard before, of course I'm gonna enjoy Pearl Jam's version more," like it was the most natural thing in the world to automatically default to PJ because of some sense of personal connection. That straight-up bothers me.

[Jorge]

And I stand by the dispute that calling it a "kind of failure in critical thinking" is condescending and immature. You value different qualities over others, fine. Good for you. Enjoy what you enjoy on your level. But I don't think it's cool to tell someone that they're inferior or to imply that they lack intelligence because they value the way a song makes them feel over it's other qualities.

You're right. I apologize for that.

[stip]

What I'm getting at isn't particularly related to stip's position that a fan often carries the weight of their personal history with that artist with them when approaching new material. My point is simply that you could get Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam (if those are the two bands we're saddled with for this exercise) to vamp on an A chord for 10 minutes and it's still going to sound different. Same tempo, same notes but the end result is discernibly not the same. I can quite happily listen to the rehearsals and offcuts from bands I really love and get more enjoyment out of them than I do another band's most outstanding work. I just like the noise they make.

Bmac is right, we've splintered off into a bunch of different arguments, but I want to be clear about this one. I agree that the end result of that jam session in A would sound very different. But I believe that difference comes from the specifics of each band's playing style as much as it comes from their gear setup, not from some untraceable energy called "The Feel". I believe, in the case of "Mind Your Manners", you're talking about a performance that couldn't be more devoid of character (apart from the guitar solo). I feel like they brought in the rawk guitarists from Central Casting and set them up around Matt Cameron. If what you're telling me is "I enjoy the song because of the subtleties in Pearl Jam's playing style", I'm gonna say I don't hear it. What some people were saying earlier in the thread was "if two different bands play a song I've never heard before, of course I'm gonna enjoy Pearl Jam's version more," like it was the most natural thing in the world to automatically default to PJ because of some sense of personal connection. That straight-up bothers me.

I think eddie vedder is the missing piece there. Also, pearl jam has a higher midichlorine count than most bands.

[Birds in Hell]

Pearl Jam (like any other massive act; Springsteen, U2, Radiohead) has a significant group of fans who are Pearl Jam fans before they're music fans. They're the ones who come here and can't believe everyone isn't more grateful that Pearl Jam deems us worthy to exist in the same universe as them. I have no doubt that all of these fans a. Love this song, and b. Would turn it off 30 seconds into if they didn't know it was Pearl Jam, so I totally think that side of the argument is very valid. Over at the Pit I would imagine this is probably 85% of the people posting over there. Pearl Jam is like their favorite sports team.

That being said, there seems to be a really high percentage of fans here who are genuinely music fans, and probably do like it because of the quality. I mean, if you are a true, dyed in the wool music fan who had their gateway opened by Pearl Jam, you absolutely at the very least have some familiarity with Bad Religion, either from seeing them open for Pearl Jam or for owning Recipe for Hate cause Ed is on it. I tend to believe that most people on here who like the song genuinely like it, and would still like it if it were a Bad Religion or a Husker Du song.

Surely that's a false dichotomy.

You don't believe there's a difference between Pearl Jam fans who are first and foremost music fans and music fans who are first and foremost Pearl Jam fans?

I do, but I don't think it's accurate to conflate the latter with those in this thread stating that it's understandable (and defensible) that Pearl Jam fans like music being played by Pearl Jam better than they do that same music by other bands they might like less.

[Jorge]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I am not seeing a lot of ZOMG BEST SONG EVAR!!! posts around here. Most seem to think its okay and I think its unfair to say its because of it being a 'Pearl Jam' song. I for one, am way too jaded for that.....

Facebook, dude. Take a quick gander at your Pearl Jam Fans filter. (If you have a Pearl Jam fans filter)

[Birds in Hell]

If what you're telling me is "I enjoy the song because of the subtleties in Pearl Jam's playing style"...

That's pretty much the heart of it, yes.

...I'm gonna say I don't hear it.

I can understand that. I mean, I don't get Tom Waits, y'know?

[hlniv]

Music is defined largely by three factors methinks.

1- Structure & definition - lyrics, melody, harmony, tempo, how it would look written in sheet music on a stand , etc
2- Equipment, the devices used to produce it
3- The people who perform it and record it

Opining about a song's style as being similar to a style common to another band is really just saying that #1 is cut from the same cloth. There will always be variability in #2 and #3. Let's say you tell two bands to play the same song- even if you could fix #2 in some sort of experiment, #3 is impossible to make constant.

So, basically, I say 2 of the 3 defining factors are always different between different bands' versions of similar (or the same) songs. Therefore, it's absolutely fair to really like a particular song performed by your favorite band and not particularly enjoy the same song (or similar song) performed by another band. What is being compared is still very different

[evenslow]

What I'm getting at isn't particularly related to stip's position that a fan often carries the weight of their personal history with that artist with them when approaching new material. My point is simply that you could get Foo Fighters and Pearl Jam (if those are the two bands we're saddled with for this exercise) to vamp on an A chord for 10 minutes and it's still going to sound different. Same tempo, same notes but the end result is discernibly not the same. I can quite happily listen to the rehearsals and offcuts from bands I really love and get more enjoyment out of them than I do another band's most outstanding work. I just like the noise they make.

Bmac is right, we've splintered off into a bunch of different arguments, but I want to be clear about this one. I agree that the end result of that jam session in A would sound very different. But I believe that difference comes from the specifics of each band's playing style as much as it comes from their gear setup, not from some untraceable energy called "The Feel". I believe, in the case of "Mind Your Manners", you're talking about a performance that couldn't be more devoid of character (apart from the guitar solo). I feel like they brought in the rawk guitarists from Central Casting and set them up around Matt Cameron. If what you're telling me is "I enjoy the song because of the subtleties in Pearl Jam's playing style", I'm gonna say I don't hear it. What some people were saying earlier in the thread was "if two different bands play a song I've never heard before, of course I'm gonna enjoy Pearl Jam's version more," like it was the most natural thing in the world to automatically default to PJ because of some sense of personal connection. That straight-up bothers me.

Do you drink? You should have a drink.

And fuck Facebook.

[Jorge]

This is what tends to drive me crazy about you and McP though. Sometimes a song demands to be turned up without an essay on genre placement.

Seems to me like a silly thing to bemoan while at a message board dedicated to discussing music.

[Lament]

I do, but I don't think it's accurate to conflate the latter with those in this thread stating that it's understandable (and defensible) that Pearl Jam fans like music being played by Pearl Jam better than they do that same music by other bands they might like less.

Ah, ok. Yeah, I apologize, I took in a lot of pages at once and was kind of responding to the general idea in theplatypus' original post, that there are definitely fans out there who would hate this song instantly if it weren't Pearl Jam. I agree that it's defensible for someone to say like they music being played in theory by band X over Y (assuming you're allowing for nuances in the performances unique to each artist).

[epilogue]

This is what tends to drive me crazy about you and McP though. Sometimes a song demands to be turned up without an essay on genre placement.

Seems to me like a silly thing to bemoan while at a message board dedicated to discussing music.

I wrote like five paragraphs that basically boiled down to this. Glad I deleted it.

[Sgt. Crackpot]

Well, I listened to it in the car just before and liked it a little more, the wife didn't really like it and it gave her a headache.

This is a good sign. Win/win.

[epilogue]

And I stand by the dispute that calling it a "kind of failure in critical thinking" is condescending and immature. You value different qualities over others, fine. Good for you. Enjoy what you enjoy on your level. But I don't think it's cool to tell someone that they're inferior or to imply that they lack intelligence because they value the way a song makes them feel over it's other qualities.

You're right. I apologize for that.

[evenslow]

This is what tends to drive me crazy about you and McP though. Sometimes a song demands to be turned up without an essay on genre placement.

Seems to me like a silly thing to bemoan while at a message board dedicated to discussing music.

Silly to say or not, the point remains and looms large over you.