theplatypus wrote:Eddie Vedder should just record himself doing karaoke versions of his favorite songs. It'd be a huge hit.
Incidentally, this is why I go on so much about Dave A. He was anything but 'generic', and Matt is pretty much as generic as it's possible to be as a rich musician. Now there is one member in PJ with some personality, and it's Ed. I'm sure they have plenty of personality as people, but where is it??? And I think a lot of people have been asking this of PJ even in reference to what we fans think of as their best albums. I've heard plenty of people call PJ generic, and long before Backspacer. So I'm not sure it's an issue you can just pin on new material. Or at least, you can but it's a subjective judgment.
And everyone knows how much I hate subjective judgments. They're morally wrong.
I don't think Vitalogy or No Code are generic. These albums stand out to me because they have an attitude and style and feel and are executed to near perfection. They are my favorite in the catalogue because they have a distinct personality and could not have been made by any other group (No Code despite the Uncle Neil influences). They are art. Two different drummers and one common denominator: they hated one another. Too strong? They weren't getting along. Possibly this group needs to be outside its comfort zone to make its best music. Maybe if Stone doesn't like the direction of the band you're on to something. Obviously you don't let everyone take a hand at lyrics. You don't allow Ed to get bloated, lazy, and distracted. The band chose survival above all else. Good on them. And if they capture Lightning Bolt in a bottle I'll be surprised but elated.
Vitalogy and No Code are two of nine albums. If you heard Ten and then got a casual listen to Vs. and then missed or vaguely tuned in for the rest of their career i can see how the generic tag would be applied. If you're a fan you recognize how consistently good they have been and how many chances they've taken.
You focus on Matt as boring. I'll raise you Mike. If Ed were on guitar alongside Stone you'd be sacrificing proficiency and ability on an instrument for personality and feeling. I firmly believe that it's Mike's milquetoast metal virtuosity that defines the band as generic. I'm sure these are fighting words.
theplatypus wrote:Eddie Vedder should just record himself doing karaoke versions of his favorite songs. It'd be a huge hit.
Incidentally, this is why I go on so much about Dave A. He was anything but 'generic', and Matt is pretty much as generic as it's possible to be as a rich musician. Now there is one member in PJ with some personality, and it's Ed. I'm sure they have plenty of personality as people, but where is it??? And I think a lot of people have been asking this of PJ even in reference to what we fans think of as their best albums. I've heard plenty of people call PJ generic, and long before Backspacer. So I'm not sure it's an issue you can just pin on new material. Or at least, you can but it's a subjective judgment.
And everyone knows how much I hate subjective judgments. They're morally wrong.
The thing is, at least in my part of the word, people tend to gravitate either to the very mainstream music or to some sub sub sub genre of whatever alternative genre. Pearl Jam is neither and in a way generic. To me personally it's a good thing because if they were some sort of punk/metal i'd be bored with them in a couple of months. But what is your issue with Matt's drums is part of my broader main issue with them - their song writing begs for better production. And by that i mean more subtlety in the arrangements and top notch mixing and mastering that doesn't fuck it all up.
You got me thinking about Dave A vs Matt though and you have a point in the sense that Matt does sound generic. In retrospect i believe that PJ wasn't the band for Dave because they'd never stick to something that would fit to his talents. I don't agree that the drummers played that huge of a role though. My favourite albums of theirs are No Code and Vitalogy and to me they sound very related - and i'm aware hardly anybody will agree with me on this. The difference in the drumming while obvious isn't something that i perceive as dominant in how i perceive the albums.
No code and beyond would not have been possible with dave. Amazing drummer but he lacked the subtlety required for that record particularly.
I can't imagine him on it or any of the others. Binaural perhaps, but no other.
theplatypus wrote:Eddie Vedder should just record himself doing karaoke versions of his favorite songs. It'd be a huge hit.
Incidentally, this is why I go on so much about Dave A. He was anything but 'generic', and Matt is pretty much as generic as it's possible to be as a rich musician. Now there is one member in PJ with some personality, and it's Ed. I'm sure they have plenty of personality as people, but where is it??? And I think a lot of people have been asking this of PJ even in reference to what we fans think of as their best albums. I've heard plenty of people call PJ generic, and long before Backspacer. So I'm not sure it's an issue you can just pin on new material. Or at least, you can but it's a subjective judgment.
And everyone knows how much I hate subjective judgments. They're morally wrong.
The thing is, at least in my part of the word, people tend to gravitate either to the very mainstream music or to some sub sub sub genre of whatever alternative genre. Pearl Jam is neither and in a way generic. To me personally it's a good thing because if they were some sort of punk/metal i'd be bored with them in a couple of months. But what is your issue with Matt's drums is part of my broader main issue with them - their song writing begs for better production. And by that i mean more subtlety in the arrangements and top notch mixing and mastering that doesn't fuck it all up.
You got me thinking about Dave A vs Matt though and you have a point in the sense that Matt does sound generic. In retrospect i believe that PJ wasn't the band for Dave because they'd never stick to something that would fit to his talents. I don't agree that the drummers played that huge of a role though. My favourite albums of theirs are No Code and Vitalogy and to me they sound very related - and i'm aware hardly anybody will agree with me on this. The difference in the drumming while obvious isn't something that i perceive as dominant in how i perceive the albums.
The drumming being that big of a deal is huge speculation on my part, but I've managed to convince myself. I'm just saying that Dave A, in my opinion, contributed to a sound that a lot of people flocked towards. That's all really. It's a subconscious thing so it wouldn't warrant any survey analysis. I agree with everything else you say here really. Production, yes. Would I dislike Matt on this song so much if his drums *sounded* different? Probably not. Also to do with PJ really always having been generic, so when that accusation is thrown at them now it's just weird. It seems to me that it's often when they borrow from a new (for PJ) style that an individual is particularly knowledgeable and precious about, so for example punk. That's when the accusations come to the fore, and that's always been true, hence my relative dislike of Matt but only really as a drummer. As a listener, he's enjoyable enough.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Jorge, how's that review going? I'm looking forward to reading it.
I'm really hoping you don't mention the Spin Doctors.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
dimejinky99 wrote:Keep meaning to look up Jorge's blog. Remind me harmless, will you please?
It's called Every Ist and Every Ism and it's one of my favourite blogs on the worldwide web.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
dimejinky99 wrote:Keep meaning to look up Jorge's blog. Remind me harmless, will you please?
It's called Every Ist and Every Ism and it's one of my favourite blogs on the worldwide web.
His blog is good because its classic Jorge writing sans the condescending asshole part!
He can be a condescending asshole but there's charm to balance it out. Basically if you're reading have my babies, Jorge.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
He sent me a link to a post he wrote on it a few years ago and I missed it.
I'm late to the Jorge party. He's been making a lot of sense to me recently.
And he's not a condescending asshole anymore. It's a win win.
I don't think I ever thought he was. But then, sometimes I am so I might not recognise it in other people. Usually just people who fight me.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
theplatypus wrote:Eddie Vedder should just record himself doing karaoke versions of his favorite songs. It'd be a huge hit.
Incidentally, this is why I go on so much about Dave A. He was anything but 'generic', and Matt is pretty much as generic as it's possible to be as a rich musician. Now there is one member in PJ with some personality, and it's Ed. I'm sure they have plenty of personality as people, but where is it??? And I think a lot of people have been asking this of PJ even in reference to what we fans think of as their best albums. I've heard plenty of people call PJ generic, and long before Backspacer. So I'm not sure it's an issue you can just pin on new material. Or at least, you can but it's a subjective judgment.
And everyone knows how much I hate subjective judgments. They're morally wrong.
The thing is, at least in my part of the word, people tend to gravitate either to the very mainstream music or to some sub sub sub genre of whatever alternative genre. Pearl Jam is neither and in a way generic. To me personally it's a good thing because if they were some sort of punk/metal i'd be bored with them in a couple of months. But what is your issue with Matt's drums is part of my broader main issue with them - their song writing begs for better production. And by that i mean more subtlety in the arrangements and top notch mixing and mastering that doesn't fuck it all up.
You got me thinking about Dave A vs Matt though and you have a point in the sense that Matt does sound generic. In retrospect i believe that PJ wasn't the band for Dave because they'd never stick to something that would fit to his talents. I don't agree that the drummers played that huge of a role though. My favourite albums of theirs are No Code and Vitalogy and to me they sound very related - and i'm aware hardly anybody will agree with me on this. The difference in the drumming while obvious isn't something that i perceive as dominant in how i perceive the albums.
The drumming being that big of a deal is huge speculation on my part, but I've managed to convince myself. I'm just saying that Dave A, in my opinion, contributed to a sound that a lot of people flocked towards. That's all really. It's a subconscious thing so it wouldn't warrant any survey analysis. I agree with everything else you say here really. Production, yes. Would I dislike Matt on this song so much if his drums *sounded* different? Probably not. Also to do with PJ really always having been generic, so when that accusation is thrown at them now it's just weird. It seems to me that it's often when they borrow from a new (for PJ) style that an individual is particularly knowledgeable and precious about, so for example punk. That's when the accusations come to the fore, and that's always been true, hence my relative dislike of Matt but only really as a drummer. As a listener, he's enjoyable enough.
There's another aspect to the drummer issue. Drummers are the least valued part of band and it's a shame. Most people barely go past the singer to the guitar players plus the way music is mixed and mastered this days most of what drums can do to a song gets lost by the time it reaches the public. It's a shame really because when you stumble upon a well mixed and mastered recording you usually can here the huge part the drums play in the sense of space in a song.
theplatypus wrote:Eddie Vedder should just record himself doing karaoke versions of his favorite songs. It'd be a huge hit.
Incidentally, this is why I go on so much about Dave A. He was anything but 'generic', and Matt is pretty much as generic as it's possible to be as a rich musician. Now there is one member in PJ with some personality, and it's Ed. I'm sure they have plenty of personality as people, but where is it??? And I think a lot of people have been asking this of PJ even in reference to what we fans think of as their best albums. I've heard plenty of people call PJ generic, and long before Backspacer. So I'm not sure it's an issue you can just pin on new material. Or at least, you can but it's a subjective judgment.
And everyone knows how much I hate subjective judgments. They're morally wrong.
The thing is, at least in my part of the word, people tend to gravitate either to the very mainstream music or to some sub sub sub genre of whatever alternative genre. Pearl Jam is neither and in a way generic. To me personally it's a good thing because if they were some sort of punk/metal i'd be bored with them in a couple of months. But what is your issue with Matt's drums is part of my broader main issue with them - their song writing begs for better production. And by that i mean more subtlety in the arrangements and top notch mixing and mastering that doesn't fuck it all up.
You got me thinking about Dave A vs Matt though and you have a point in the sense that Matt does sound generic. In retrospect i believe that PJ wasn't the band for Dave because they'd never stick to something that would fit to his talents. I don't agree that the drummers played that huge of a role though. My favourite albums of theirs are No Code and Vitalogy and to me they sound very related - and i'm aware hardly anybody will agree with me on this. The difference in the drumming while obvious isn't something that i perceive as dominant in how i perceive the albums.
The drumming being that big of a deal is huge speculation on my part, but I've managed to convince myself. I'm just saying that Dave A, in my opinion, contributed to a sound that a lot of people flocked towards. That's all really. It's a subconscious thing so it wouldn't warrant any survey analysis. I agree with everything else you say here really. Production, yes. Would I dislike Matt on this song so much if his drums *sounded* different? Probably not. Also to do with PJ really always having been generic, so when that accusation is thrown at them now it's just weird. It seems to me that it's often when they borrow from a new (for PJ) style that an individual is particularly knowledgeable and precious about, so for example punk. That's when the accusations come to the fore, and that's always been true, hence my relative dislike of Matt but only really as a drummer. As a listener, he's enjoyable enough.
There's another aspect to the drummer issue. Drummers are the least valued part of band and it's a shame. Most people barely go past the singer to the guitar players plus the way music is mixed and mastered this days most of what drums can do to a song gets lost by the time it reaches the public. It's a shame really because when you stumble upon a well mixed and mastered recording you usually can here the huge part the drums play in the sense of space in a song.
My dad used to say to me 'Is that Pearl Jam you're playing? Ah yes, course it is, the drums are loud in the mix.' He knew that was a huge factor for me. It helped that Dave's snare was cranked up to 11 as well; everyone here knows that I think Matt's snares are pretty much always too 'fat' for my taste.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
That's not true here. The drummer debate has been raging forever.
Everyone wrote Mike off a few years ago(patterns) and Stones contribution literally never gets mentioned.
Mostly ed gets all the shot for getting older and not being angry anymore.
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
Yeah but I said 'Most people here (RM)' know what my opinion is about Matt's snares. You replied 'That's not true here' and so I was like huh?
RisingTides wrote:There is more kindness on the internet than we would care to admit to ourselves. Sometimes we are so afraid of falling victim to a ruse, we miss out on actual opportunities.
