What are you currently watching on TV?

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[E.H. Ruddock]

Trag, lets not forget that it wasn't just "he has illegal guns lets storm the property". They were serving a warrant when they were attacked. That is what led to the standoff and siege.

Also, I just feel bad for his dog that got killed. Life is precious.

"Attacked"? My understanding of events is that the FBI were on his property; they were "attacked" by his dog; they shot his dog; and then the Weavers and FBI all started shooting because no one knew who fired those first shots at the dog (due to there being multiple FBI parties in densely-thicketed forest). Unless I've misunderstood something?

Only that he refused to come peacefully for serving the warrant for failure to appear. And even if they shot the dog, clearly the people on the property were at the ready with their guns if they were returning fire at some point. Not sure about you, but if I had a warrant out for me I wouldn't be resisting with guns.

[LoathedVermin72]

1. Yeah, so I guess he was wearing a "Just Say No to ZOG" T-shirt as a joke, yeah? Apologist horseshit.

2. How is selling murder weapons not a serious crime?

3. It's his own fault for committing a crime and refusing to face judgment for it. How do you expect society to function if people just refuse to abide by the law and face no consequences?

1. In what world should an offensive t-shirt lead to violence? My own sense is that he's neither a racist nor an apologist; he's probably just mentally unstable and has likely struggled with severe depression after the Ruby Ridge incident.

2. Were the guns used in a murder? I honestly can't recall. I'm all for strict gun control, but I'm also opposed to any sort of government entrapment.

3. Yes, he deserved to face judgment in a court of law. But a violent siege on his family?

Total straw man. The T-shirt didn't lead to violence. His breaking the law did. He's clearly a racist, and I meant you are being an apologist. In what world are you actually going to argue that a guy who regularly attended Aryan meetings wasn't at all a racist? Come on.

What else would sawed-off shotguns be for? They are designed to kill people, and they're illegal for a reason.

What do you expect the government to do if someone refuses to face justice? He is the one that created that ultimatum. If he was so concerned for his family, he should have considered that before putting them in this situation.

I don't see how I'm being an apologist? I just don't believe that any sort of personal beliefs should lead to gov't entrapment and violence towards your loved ones. You are familiar with entrapment by law, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entrapment

Given the circumstances of their daily life, I don't equate attending 3-4 meetings in an extremely remote area as his strongly supporting racist groups. I just see a lonely guy, with some racist tendencies, who wanted to drink beer and socialize. I'm somewhat sympathetic to that narrative, only because I've seen poorly educated Idaho residents drift in and out of these sorts of groups in the part (a distant cousin is married to one such guy).

I also don't regard the sale of two sawed-off shotguns to some backwoods knuckleheads as an intent to commit a violent crime. I'm surrounded by people in MT who stockpile guns they'll never use for anything more than shooting ground squirrels and grouse. This one's really in the eye of the beholder, but I see some poor white trash who wanted some new firearms to play with, not anyone who was planning to kill other people. And again, Weaver was pretty clearly compelled by the ATF agents to sell them the guns.

I get where you're coming from with the government's response and the risk for his family. But like Ruddo mentioned, their assault on his property was such a clusterfuck. Surely there were other ways it could have been handled that didn't include two innocent family members being killed?

At any rate, I'm glad you watched this. I'm fascinated by the case, and recognize there's a ton of grey area in how things went down. I'm intrigued by narrative that this, Waco, and Oklahoma City were the starting points for the modern militia movement, and by extension, a significant part of Trump's base.

This: "Given the circumstances of their daily life, I don't equate attending 3-4 meetings in an extremely remote area as his strongly supporting racist groups. I just see a lonely guy, with some racist tendencies, who wanted to drink beer and socialize. I'm somewhat sympathetic to that narrative"

This is being an apologist. The guy attended Aryan meetings and believes in the ZOG conspiracy, and he's just a "lonely guy with some racist tendencies?" No. Bullshit. He is a racist, man.

Stockpiling legal firearms is one thing. Illegal firearms is different story. A sawed-off shotgun is a weapon expressly designed for violence against human begins. You're not shooting squirrels or grouse with a sawed-off.

I think the whole entrapment narrative is being overly generous/sympathetic to him. He freely and willingly committed a crime. I wouldn't call it entrapment if undercover agents test you to see if you will commit a crime, and you do. No one forced him to do anything.

The raid was sloppy, yes. But, at the end of the day, I still side with the government here.

If this and Welcome to Leith are showing me anything, it's that our laws don't do ENOUGH to quell hateful beliefs. Of course, being a free society, it's a slippery slope to go down that road legally, so I don't know what to do about it. It's incredibly frustrating.

[LoathedVermin72]

Trag, lets not forget that it wasn't just "he has illegal guns lets storm the property". They were serving a warrant when they were attacked. That is what led to the standoff and siege.

Also, I just feel bad for his dog that got killed. Life is precious.

"Attacked"? My understanding of events is that the FBI were on his property; they were "attacked" by his dog; they shot his dog; and then the Weavers and FBI all started shooting because no one knew who fired those first shots at the dog (due to there being multiple FBI parties in densely-thicketed forest). Unless I've misunderstood something?

Only that he refused to come peacefully for serving the warrant for failure to appear. And even if they shot the dog, clearly the people on the property were at the ready with their guns if they were returning fire at some point. Not sure about you, but if I had a warrant out for me I wouldn't be resisting with guns.

Yes, exactly. His violent resistance was met with violent force. What else are government agents supposed to do?

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[LoathedVermin72]

How was it entrapment?! How were they bullshit charges?! If you sell illegal firearms to ATF agents, that seems like a pretty fucking legit crime. That's how undercover agents work.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[LoathedVermin72]

The interesting thing about Welcome to Leith is the contrast between Craig Cobb and his shitlords and the ordinary townspeople of Leith. You see how decent and dignified the latter are, which is encouraging. True Americans. Good people. Makes Cobb look even worse. You see WHY people like him are so horrendous.

[LoathedVermin72]

How was it entrapment?! How were they bullshit charges?! If you sell illegal firearms to ATF agents, that seems like a pretty fucking legit crime. That's how undercover agents work.

Because they asked him to make the guns for him; he wasn't already sitting around sawing off shotguns and trying to sell them. Ethical quandaries aside, I believe this meets the legal definition of entrapment to the letter.

I have no qualms with undercover agents using such methods. It's not like they coerced him or forced him somehow. He still freely committed the crime.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[LoathedVermin72]

How was it entrapment?! How were they bullshit charges?! If you sell illegal firearms to ATF agents, that seems like a pretty fucking legit crime. That's how undercover agents work.

Because they asked him to make the guns for him; he wasn't already sitting around sawing off shotguns and trying to sell them. Ethical quandaries aside, I believe this meets the legal definition of entrapment to the letter.

I have no qualms with undercover agents using such methods. It's not like they coerced him or forced him somehow. He still freely committed the crime.

Again, a "qualm" has nothing to do with the law. They did coerce him; that's exactly what they did. And though his willingness to comply with the request is ethically gross, it does fall under the umbrella of entrapment...Which makes his resistance to the pursuant charges and legal process totally understandable to me.

I see what you're saying, but the guy still chose to resist violently, with guns, and to involve his family in doing so.

[LoathedVermin72]

Verm, if you had to pick one, would you say that poor black drug dealers are criminals, or victims of circumstance?

I lean towards the latter, and see Randy Weaver's willingness to saw off a couple of guns to make some quick cash as his being the victim of a system that was out to use him for its own advantage (infiltrating the white supremacist movement by forcing him to become a snitch).

Both, I would say.

I think calling Weaver a "victim" of anything is a pretty big stretch.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[LoathedVermin72]

While it's clear we lean in favor of opposite sides, I see what you're getting at here.

You should definitely watch Welcome to Leith. I feel like these are somewhat similar cases.

[tragabigzanda]

Whenever there's active promotion on the part of somebody else, whenever I see somebody all dolled up for a fancy photograph and someone's handing out flyers or whenever there's active promotion for something like that, as an imposition on my day, I hate all those people and I want them to fail. I have a visceral reaction to advertising and promotion. There's just something about salesmanship that grates on me on a very base level and I react very negatively towards it. I want those people to suffer and I want their enterprises to fail.

[LoathedVermin72]

"What other words start with a N?"

*awkward silence*

[doug rr]

Harlots on hulu is pretty good so far

[E.H. Ruddock]

Harlots on hulu is pretty good so far

oh yeah I've been wanting to check that out