Okay, fine, but you weren't just replying. This whole thing started with your "historically impossible, purely fictional example." That's where all of this began. Perhaps you didn't mean to use world history as an argument but you did as soon as you mentioned real historical figures.Anders wrote:I wasn't using world history as an argument at all until I was confronted with European history. I simply replied to that.durdencommatyler wrote:I'm not tossing away anything you're saying as silly, I'm saying you're using false equivalence to make a point, thereby invalidating your argument. You may know a lot about world history but that's irrelevant to a discussion about a fictional fantasy tv show that isn't playing by real world rules; even if some of the plot lines were inspired by actual events.Anders wrote:I see nuance in a lot of characters. But it is fairly clear that we will not agree on Dany. Whatever I say is sort of tossed away as something not thought through, or perhaps just silly.durdencommatyler wrote:This kind of argument shows either zero understanding or willful disregard of nuance, subtlety and/or degree. If all you care about is "he is good" and "she is bad" then I'm not sure either of us is going to be able to make much headway with the other. Just as in life, this show is about so much more than just good/evil and black/white. You seem to value only "good" and "obvious good" at that. Again, that's not valuable to me and not something I have much interest in discussing as it regards Game of Thrones and its characters.Anders wrote:How do you judge a character then? Was Joffrey ok? Ramsay? Theon? Dany? No, none of them in any definition. Even in a Fantasy series. Ned Stark and Jon Snow are obviously good.
I think though, you may now see why I would think it would be a bad idea for Jon Snow to bend the knee. Even if you don't agree.
At which point in world history did an army of blue-eyed, frozen, undead, zombie monsters rise up from a thousand year sleep to invade the lands of the living? At which point did a woman survive a burning inferno unscathed and hatch three dragon eggs? The rules of the game are different in the show than in real life. You can't play one game using a different game's rule book. It's like trying to use the rules of Monopoly to understand how Wall Street works.
And, no, I still don't understand your point about Jon not bending the knee. As far as I can tell it still makes sense from a character perspective and from a story perspective and from a political perspective.
I made a historically impossible, purely fictional example of modern day America, simply as an illustration of the violent and megalomaniac quotes that I borrowed directly from Dany. If you are a citizen in King's Landing, I do not think those would make you sleep well at night.
Jon as he knows it, had his uncle and grandfather killed by her father. He is now king of the North, and none there wants him to be ruled by her. You are saying he should bend the knee to someone who has never been in the north, never lived in Westeros, has conquered no land, and has a foreign army known for a brutal culture beyond what is normal in Westeros, and all of these use a religion that is hated by his people.
If you want to throw away the whole Nixon's daughter thing and just look at those Dany quotes, great! Let's do that. I agree that were I a citizen of King's Landing, those quotes, out of context, would not help me sleep at night. Luckily, I have context and perspective and I'm not hearing those words in a vacuum.
Jon's relationship and past as it regards the Targaryan's is a valid point and the most interesting argument you've posed so far. My issue is that having sworn an oath to abandon his past relationships to become a member of the Night's Watch and then seeing the White Walkers and then dying and being risen from the dead probably means he has a bigger perspective on this stuff than just some old grudges/alliances. Look at all the bridging he's already done between the North and the Wildlings.
Jon has repeated time and again that he never wanted to lead. I don't think he gives a good tin shit about being King in the North and will gladly hand over the North to Sansa as soon as the threat from the Walkers is neutralized. I don't think he cares about who has conquered lands or lived in Westeros or any of that. I don't think he cares much about religion either. However, if anything he's probably more prone to fall on Dany's side of the religion thing given what he's been through and his experience with Melissandre.
So, yeah, I don't think he plays The Game of Thrones. I think he cares about protecting his people and stopping the biggest threat they all face: the White Walkers. And if the best way to do that is to ally with Dany, then, yeah, I absolutely believe he'll do that. Bending the knee is just a gesture. King in the North is just a title. Jon Snow understands better than most how meaningless all of that is.
