Red Mosquito

Iholdthepain wrote: methinks.

Iholdthepain wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:For my money, "Power" is the best example of Kanye as an "orchestral producer" -- the way different elements of the sample appear and disappear throughout the track, and interact with each other in different capacities and combinations, culminating in that harmonically stunning coda with those "ah-ah, hey-hey"s looping over the chord changes from earlier in the song. Just wonderful stuff.

17 writers credited (including Robert Fripp - WTF?)...

4 producer credits...

Yes, when a lot of artists are sampled, they all have to be credited as writers, not dissimilar to an author including a bibliography when citing the works of other writers. The fact that there are 17 writers on that track (one of whom was indeed Robert Fripp, whose "21st Century Schizoid Man" is sampled) is an argument for, not against, Kanye's talents as a manipulator of samples -- it feels like you're kind of misunderstanding the fundamental infrastructure of rap music here, and defaulting to the old fallacy that hip-hop artists sample records because they can't compose music on their own. Having 17 composers on that track isn't Kanye needing 17 composers' worth of "help" -- that's just the number of pieces he used for his collage, the number of authors he needed to cite as reference.

Maybe it is an old, tired argument, but if you're such a great composer you wouldn't need to take so much from other artists, methinks.

bart wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote: methinks.

Do you, though?

Iholdthepain wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:For my money, "Power" is the best example of Kanye as an "orchestral producer" -- the way different elements of the sample appear and disappear throughout the track, and interact with each other in different capacities and combinations, culminating in that harmonically stunning coda with those "ah-ah, hey-hey"s looping over the chord changes from earlier in the song. Just wonderful stuff.

17 writers credited (including Robert Fripp - WTF?)...

4 producer credits...

Yes, when a lot of artists are sampled, they all have to be credited as writers, not dissimilar to an author including a bibliography when citing the works of other writers. The fact that there are 17 writers on that track (one of whom was indeed Robert Fripp, whose "21st Century Schizoid Man" is sampled) is an argument for, not against, Kanye's talents as a manipulator of samples -- it feels like you're kind of misunderstanding the fundamental infrastructure of rap music here, and defaulting to the old fallacy that hip-hop artists sample records because they can't compose music on their own. Having 17 composers on that track isn't Kanye needing 17 composers' worth of "help" -- that's just the number of pieces he used for his collage, the number of authors he needed to cite as reference.

Maybe it is an old, tired argument, but if you're such a great composer you wouldn't need to take so much from other artists, methinks.

Kevin Davis wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

Iholdthepain wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:For my money, "Power" is the best example of Kanye as an "orchestral producer" -- the way different elements of the sample appear and disappear throughout the track, and interact with each other in different capacities and combinations, culminating in that harmonically stunning coda with those "ah-ah, hey-hey"s looping over the chord changes from earlier in the song. Just wonderful stuff.

17 writers credited (including Robert Fripp - WTF?)...

4 producer credits...

Yes, when a lot of artists are sampled, they all have to be credited as writers, not dissimilar to an author including a bibliography when citing the works of other writers. The fact that there are 17 writers on that track (one of whom was indeed Robert Fripp, whose "21st Century Schizoid Man" is sampled) is an argument for, not against, Kanye's talents as a manipulator of samples -- it feels like you're kind of misunderstanding the fundamental infrastructure of rap music here, and defaulting to the old fallacy that hip-hop artists sample records because they can't compose music on their own. Having 17 composers on that track isn't Kanye needing 17 composers' worth of "help" -- that's just the number of pieces he used for his collage, the number of authors he needed to cite as reference.

Maybe it is an old, tired argument, but if you're such a great composer you wouldn't need to take so much from other artists, methinks.

It's not only old and tired, it's just flat-out wrong -- hip-hop artists don't "need" to take from other artists. It's a choice; it's part of what the music is. It's an art form unto itself, and I guarantee that most virtuoso instrumentalists would be as lost trying to build a song from samples as many producers would be trying to lead a rock band.

The thing I hate about the argument is the condescending implication that all rappers secretly wish they could play instruments themselves and only use samples out of some kind of artistic desperation. THIS IS FALSE AND RIDICULOUS. You can do things with samples that you can't do with live instrumentation, and vice versa.

durdencommatyler wrote:I was right to avoid this thread for so long. But never in a million years would I have guessed the reason. Jesus.

Kevin Davis wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I was right to avoid this thread for so long. But never in a million years would I have guessed the reason. Jesus.

What was the reason you imagined, and what was the actual reason?

durdencommatyler wrote:

Kevin Davis wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:I was right to avoid this thread for so long. But never in a million years would I have guessed the reason. Jesus.

What was the reason you imagined, and what was the actual reason?

The reason I imagined was Kanye West.

The real reason was thiposaurus.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I was about to come in this thread to apologize to thip for being so aggressive but goddammit he is not making it easy

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I was about to come in this thread to apologize to thip for being so aggressive but goddammit he is not making it easy

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I'd also argue that anyone saying that artists need to be humble and that Kanye is a douche because he essentially just has really high self-esteem is displaying an ignorance of what rap music is all about.

Rangi Guy wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I'd also argue that anyone saying that artists need to be humble and that Kanye is a douche because he essentially just has really high self-esteem is displaying an ignorance of what rap music is all about.

I always thought he was just really insecure.... If you're good - you don't need to tell the world that you're good. They'll be able to tell that for themselves