Red Mosquito

wease wrote:I don't feel that one act by Vader makes up for 25 years of being the second most evil being in the galaxy. ... this movie neuters Vader. He's no longer number one fucking badass of the galaxy. He's a simpering pussy.

But his arc is not about who he was to the rest of the galaxy. It was about who he was to himself, and to his son. Also, part of what ROTJ illustrates is that Vader was being used and twisted by the Emperor the whole time he was an "evil being," which calls into question how "evil" he ever truly was (the seeds for this were planted in small moments in ESB, so I don't think this feels tacked on or rushed or incomplete). He was tormented and angry and, yes, clearly behaving like a monster. But part of what makes the end of ROTJ so compelling and satisfying to me is that they don't give him a villain's death. They don't treat him as a one-dimensional figure of evil. They add nuance. They ask you to empathize. Vader is revealed to be a complicated character; his arc isn't simple. In that light, he becomes tragic, even heartbreaking. That is infinitely more interesting to me. His final moments with Luke are beautiful. What you'd call someone being a "simpering pussy," I'd call someone being vulnerable for the first time in decades. I find it quite moving whenever I watch ROTJ.

I get faulting ROTJ for Lucas supposedly dumbing things down for kids and merchandising (though I strongly disagree), but I think the way Vader is handled is perfect. It seems to me like a lot of the criticisms come from a simplistic or cynical place. People seem to reject the triumph, redemption, and joy of ROTJ's ending, which I think is...well, juvenile. Especially when everything that happens seems so in line with the characters and their respective journeys.

That said, the whole Endor sequence is absolutely terrible

The Endor sequence has always been one of my absolute favorite things in the trilogy. Hell, in any movie. Do you just hate ewoks? You just hate ewoks, don't you? You want a movie without ewoks, and with Vader being an evil badass and nothing more, don't you? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT, WEASE?!

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

wease wrote:I don't feel that one act by Vader makes up for 25 years of being the second most evil being in the galaxy. ... this movie neuters Vader. He's no longer number one fucking badass of the galaxy. He's a simpering pussy.

But his arc is not about who he was to the rest of the galaxy. It was about who he was to himself, and to his son. Also, part of what ROTJ illustrates is that Vader was being used and twisted by the Emperor the whole time he was an "evil being," which calls into question how "evil" he ever truly was (the seeds for this were planted in small moments in ESB, so I don't think this feels tacked on or rushed or incomplete). He was tormented and angry and, yes, clearly behaving like a monster. But part of what makes the end of ROTJ so compelling and satisfying to me is that they don't give him a villain's death. They don't treat him as a one-dimensional figure of evil. They add nuance. They ask you to empathize. Vader is revealed to be a complicated character; his arc isn't simple. In that light, he becomes tragic, even heartbreaking. That is infinitely more interesting to me. His final moments with Luke are beautiful. What you'd call someone being a "simpering pussy," I'd call someone being vulnerable for the first time in decades. I find it quite moving whenever I watch ROTJ.

I get faulting ROTJ for Lucas supposedly dumbing things down for kids and merchandising (though I strongly disagree), but I think the way Vader is handled is perfect. It seems to me like a lot of the criticisms come from a simplistic or cynical place. People seem to reject the triumph, redemption, and joy of ROTJ's ending, which I think is...well, juvenile. Especially when everything that happens seems so in line with the characters and their respective journeys.

That said, the whole Endor sequence is absolutely terrible

The Endor sequence has always been one of my absolute favorite things in the trilogy. Hell, in any movie. Do you just hate ewoks? You just hate ewoks, don't you? You want a movie without ewoks, and with Vader being an evil badass and nothing more, don't you? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT, WEASE?!

No, not at all. I just don't feel the movie is executed well. I get the arc of Vader. I get all of that (except the Ewoks). It just doesn't feel right for me. Maybe it's the script. Maybe it's the directing. I dunno. You love it. That's great. In the end, we're both Star Wars fans and like it for different reasons.

As for Ewoks, yes, I hate them. I hated them when I first saw the movie in the theater as a 10-year-old in 1983 and I hate them now. Nothing anyone can do or say will change my mind on that one.

I love ROTJ and Ewoks and Vader as a pussy.

LetMeSleep wrote:

bada wrote:Chud just stayed up too late and was tired.

Are you suggesting he'd hit a wall?

Pure class right there LMS

I've been an Ewok fan since the first time I watched RotJ. Sure, it's a bit silly how much ass they kick, but they're still awesome.

LV understands.

The scene where Luke hands himself in and he and Vader talk on that walkway is beautiful.
They take Luke away and camera cut to Vader and you can see he's torn inside. And it isn't about supplanting the emperor so he and Luke can take over.
It's just natural father and son dynamic. He's proud of him but can't tell him. And wondering should he really hand him over. It's done so well.

Yeah ST did he go to Degobah or Alderon?

tragabigzanda wrote:Where did Luke go between ESB and ROJ? Somewhere to continue his Jedi training, I'd imagine. Degobah?

This is a story i want to invest in.

tragabigzanda wrote:OMG I'm watching this now and I had complete forgotten about the new musical number in Jabba 's palace.

Hahahaha oh you poor creature

Strat wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:Where did Luke go between ESB and ROJ? Somewhere to continue his Jedi training, I'd imagine. Degobah?

This is a story i want to invest in.

I'm pretty sure when he's goes back in ROJ it's the first time he's been there since ESB. I've read somewhere that Luke grew a lot as a Jedi while fighting with the Rebel Alliance and doing various solo missions.

wease wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I don't see what's unsatisfying about it, though? Speculation about intentions aside, I find that it's not only emotionally cathartic and thematically satisfying, but also ties up all the character arcs in beautiful and logical ways. The Luke/Vader/Emperor sequences are some of the best stuff in any SW movie. Vader's redemption and death are poignant, and don't feel rushed to me at all.

I don't feel that one act by Vader makes up for 25 years of being the second most evil being in the galaxy.

I think the twin angle feels totally tacked-on. And Lucas couldn't even make it work when he did the prequels. Leia tells Luke she remembers her real mom. Their real mom died, quite literally, right after giving birth to them. It was just written in to give closure to the Other plot line Lucas knew he'd never tell about at that point.

Now, I do think Vader being Luke's father works better dramatically, as does Luke and Leia being siblings. I just wish some of the details could've been worked out better.

That said, the whole Endor sequence is absolutely terrible and this movie neuters Vader. He's no longer number one fucking badass of the galaxy. He's a simpering pussy.

the jaba sequence is overlong, but I couldnt disagree more (well, I could...) with that last paragraph

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

wease wrote:I don't feel that one act by Vader makes up for 25 years of being the second most evil being in the galaxy. ... this movie neuters Vader. He's no longer number one fucking badass of the galaxy. He's a simpering pussy.

But his arc is not about who he was to the rest of the galaxy. It was about who he was to himself, and to his son. Also, part of what ROTJ illustrates is that Vader was being used and twisted by the Emperor the whole time he was an "evil being," which calls into question how "evil" he ever truly was (the seeds for this were planted in small moments in ESB, so I don't think this feels tacked on or rushed or incomplete). He was tormented and angry and, yes, clearly behaving like a monster. But part of what makes the end of ROTJ so compelling and satisfying to me is that they don't give him a villain's death. They don't treat him as a one-dimensional figure of evil. They add nuance. They ask you to empathize. Vader is revealed to be a complicated character; his arc isn't simple. In that light, he becomes tragic, even heartbreaking. That is infinitely more interesting to me. His final moments with Luke are beautiful. What you'd call someone being a "simpering pussy," I'd call someone being vulnerable for the first time in decades. I find it quite moving whenever I watch ROTJ.

I get faulting ROTJ for Lucas supposedly dumbing things down for kids and merchandising (though I strongly disagree), but I think the way Vader is handled is perfect. It seems to me like a lot of the criticisms come from a simplistic or cynical place. People seem to reject the triumph, redemption, and joy of ROTJ's ending, which I think is...well, juvenile. Especially when everything that happens seems so in line with the characters and their respective journeys.

That said, the whole Endor sequence is absolutely terrible

The Endor sequence has always been one of my absolute favorite things in the trilogy. Hell, in any movie. Do you just hate ewoks? You just hate ewoks, don't you? You want a movie without ewoks, and with Vader being an evil badass and nothing more, don't you? IS THAT WHAT YOU WANT, WEASE?!

Team LV

LoathedVermin72 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:OMG I'm watching this now and I had complete forgotten about the new musical number in Jabba 's palace.

Hahahaha oh you poor creature

It really is one of the worst things I've ever seen in a movie.

Completely agree with LV about the way Vader's arc is completed in RoTJ.

tragabigzanda wrote:So after watching this last night, plus Rogue One last week and TFA the week before that, I had a thought: A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back are basically the only two pure SW movies in the sense that they don't seem to have been tinkered with because of fan service, merchandising, etc. With ROJ we get the Ewoks, plus the new scenes Lucas added; with TFA we get all sorts of retreading; and with R1 we get a bunch of unnecessary cameos.

Also, I'd rank 'em like this now:

A New Hope
Empire Strikes Back
Rogue One
Return of the Jedi
The Force Awakens
who cares

Rank your who cares...