Red Mosquito

Just watching it again.

Man the first chase with the falcon and two tie fighters is so brilliant.
Does as much to make it feel like real Star Wars as the old character reveals.
It's so well edited. Pure excitement.

spike wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I'm not sure it's fair to say what makes a villain interesting is finding out why they became evil. Vader's struggles with Obi-Wan, his son, and his master in the OT strike me as far more meaningful and nuanced than anything we've seen from Kylo.

6 movies and 40 years covering vader compared to 1 movie and less than a week for ren. as always, you're completely fair in your assessment.

I'm only talking about the OT. Calm down, man.

What makes villains engaging is completely different, from hero characters. The Joker was one of the most memorable villains in recent history, at least partially because he repelled any attempt at further understanding. Bane had a richer history, and was far less interestingly sculpted. Loki has the most detailed history of the three, and is basically a bad joke as a villain.

Not to say a villain should be undefined. They just don't require the depth that a hero does.

McParadigm wrote:What makes villains engaging is completely different, from hero characters. The Joker was one of the most memorable villains in recent history, at least partially because he repelled any attempt at further understanding. Bane had a richer history, and was far less interestingly sculpted. Loki has the most detailed history of the three, and is basically a bad joke as a villain.

I think most of that is tied to the actor and the portrayal of the character and less to do with the fact they fleshed out a back story. Loki? Lol. Bane? Was great but compared to Heath Ledger doing the joker....

McParadigm wrote:What makes villains engaging is completely different, from hero characters. The Joker was one of the most memorable villains in recent history, at least partially because he repelled any attempt at further understanding. Bane had a richer history, and was far less interestingly sculpted. Loki has the most detailed history of the three, and is basically a bad joke as a villain.

just go see the movie, mcp. driver's performance isn't on the level of ledger, but it's an interesting performance nonetheless. the character's in good hands.

I also think all of the "interesting" things about Kylo Ren felt very rushed and ham-fisted. It mirrored the pacing - too much, too fast. If we're gonna do the Vader comparison, we find out very little about Vader in ANH. They just allow him to be a scary villain in that movie, with a few vague allusions to his history (mostly through Obi-Wan). TFA falls all over itself in an effort to give you all kinds of information about Ren and his family right off the bat. There's no time to allow him to be a threatening villain. He already feels stripped of menace. That could be the goal, but it doesn't make for a very convincing villain, at least at this stage.

spike wrote: the character's in good hands.

we don't know that yet

McParadigm wrote:What makes villains engaging is completely different, from hero characters. The Joker was one of the most memorable villains in recent history, at least partially because he repelled any attempt at further understanding. Bane had a richer history, and was far less interestingly sculpted. Loki has the most detailed history of the three, and is basically a bad joke as a villain.

I don't know that this has to be related to the hero or the villain--it's just an approach to how you present the character--are they relatable with understandable motives, or are they someone who stands outside judgement and understanding.

spike wrote:

McParadigm wrote:What makes villains engaging is completely different, from hero characters. The Joker was one of the most memorable villains in recent history, at least partially because he repelled any attempt at further understanding. Bane had a richer history, and was far less interestingly sculpted. Loki has the most detailed history of the three, and is basically a bad joke as a villain.

just go see the movie, mcp. driver's performance isn't on the level of ledger, but it's an interesting performance nonetheless. the character's in good hands.

You've said yourself that you think Abrams is a good character director--he created some rich, multi-dimensional characters that will be worth exploring.

spike wrote:

McParadigm wrote:What makes villains engaging is completely different, from hero characters. The Joker was one of the most memorable villains in recent history, at least partially because he repelled any attempt at further understanding. Bane had a richer history, and was far less interestingly sculpted. Loki has the most detailed history of the three, and is basically a bad joke as a villain.

just go see the movie, mcp. driver's performance isn't on the level of ledger, but it's an interesting performance nonetheless. the character's in good hands.

I don't doubt that. JJ gets good acting out of people (not the same as good characters, stip), and Driver is good.

On a scale of Jesus to General Hospital, though, where one is a character with an arc, who struggles and achieves and then seems defeated but wins in the end, and the other is "this week this guy is engaged, next week his fiancé will die, two weeks from now his arch enemy will return with a shocking reveal," the contained trilogy was closer to one side, while continuing with those characters has moved it decidedly to the other. I don't consider it an improvement. A mediocre new story in this universe will intrigue me more than a well executed erasure of that original story's happy ending.

McParadigm wrote:

spike wrote:

McParadigm wrote:What makes villains engaging is completely different, from hero characters. The Joker was one of the most memorable villains in recent history, at least partially because he repelled any attempt at further understanding. Bane had a richer history, and was far less interestingly sculpted. Loki has the most detailed history of the three, and is basically a bad joke as a villain.

just go see the movie, mcp. driver's performance isn't on the level of ledger, but it's an interesting performance nonetheless. the character's in good hands.

I don't doubt that. JJ gets good acting out of people (not the same as good characters, stip), and Driver is good.

On a scale of Jesus to General Hospital, though, where one is a character with an arc, who struggles and achieves and then seems defeated but wins in the end, and the other is "this week this guy is engaged, next week his fiancé will die, two weeks from now his arch enemy will return with a shocking reveal," the contained trilogy was closer to one side, while continuing with those characters has moved it decidedly to the other. I don't consider it an improvement. A mediocre new story in this universe will intrigue me more than a well executed erasure of that original story's happy ending.

Yes, but this really doesn't have much to do with the old characters, which is what I think you're missing/have inaccurately built up. Leia is a marginal figure. Luke is a plot point. Han is a major player in the film, but he is there because of the role he plays in the lives of our 3 principal new characters and how his presence helps them begin their own journeys.

I mean is it SOOOO hard to believe that the writer of Empire and Return of the Jedi and a good actors director actually created a bunch of new characters that rise from the ashes of the original trilogy that are worth investing yourself in? The story has its moments of redundancies, but the film is really attempting to make its mark with the new characters it introduces and the ideas/questions it leaves hanging for future chapters. It's extremely successful in that regard. The actual plot of the movies is adequate, but I agree you're not following along because the plot is gripping.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I also think all of the "interesting" things about Kylo Ren felt very rushed and ham-fisted. It mirrored the pacing - too much, too fast. If we're gonna do the Vader comparison, we find out very little about Vader in ANH. They just allow him to be a scary villain in that movie, with a few vague allusions to his history (mostly through Obi-Wan). TFA falls all over itself in an effort to give you all kinds of information about Ren and his family right off the bat. There's no time to allow him to be a threatening villain. He already feels stripped of menace. That could be the goal, but it doesn't make for a very convincing villain, at least at this stage.

So they didnt do Ren like they did Vader, and they did TFA too much like ANH and.....? You love RIdiculous 6. Also, they really didnt delve too much into the character as you are makingit out. A few lines of dialogue at most.

I have to say I found Ren pretty threatening when he was in his mask. I like the fact that he looks like kind of a putz without it. It fits perfectly well with the image issues he's grappling with for himself. And in the end, during his final duels, he was unhinged enough to seem scary. Yes Rey ends up handling him in the end, but this is after ren was shot with a weapon they spent the whole movie hyping the power of, and had just fought a duel (albeit one he wins fairly handily)

Strat wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I also think all of the "interesting" things about Kylo Ren felt very rushed and ham-fisted. It mirrored the pacing - too much, too fast. If we're gonna do the Vader comparison, we find out very little about Vader in ANH. They just allow him to be a scary villain in that movie, with a few vague allusions to his history (mostly through Obi-Wan). TFA falls all over itself in an effort to give you all kinds of information about Ren and his family right off the bat. There's no time to allow him to be a threatening villain. He already feels stripped of menace. That could be the goal, but it doesn't make for a very convincing villain, at least at this stage.

So they didnt do Ren like they did Vader, and they did TFA too much like ANH and.....? You love RIdiculous 6. Also, they really didnt delve too much into the character as you are makingit out. A few lines of dialogue at most.

I'm not saying they had to do him like Vader, or even that I would want them to (I wouldn't). I even prefaced it by saying "if we're going to the do the comparison."

All I was saying is that, at this stage, I find him neither compelling nor threatening. Driver, being a compelling actor, does what he can, but he is crushed under the limp characterization and the expository script.

Strange continuity screw up.

Hans hair is short when he and Chewie appear on the falcon. Then it's kinda long by the time we get to the battle at Maz's place. A lot longer. Odd that.

dimejinky99 wrote:Strange continuity screw up.

Hans hair is short when he and Chewie appear on the falcon. Then it's kinda long by the time we get to the battle at Maz's place. A lot longer. Odd that.

He broke his ankle and took 8 months off.

kind of surprising that wasn't caught. Maybe they will change it with CGI for the special edition

stip wrote:kind of surprising that wasn't caught. Maybe they will change it with CGI for the special edition

We can only hope.