Red Mosquito

Sgt. Crackpot wrote:After all, he is the chosen one. It was his destiny.

Most think that was his father. He did end the Sith/kill the emperor.

i hate that chosen one prophecy so much - it makes no damn sense

midichlorians are better

You were doing so well...and then

I really should watch this movie again. Still only watched it once. I feel like I need one more viewing to see if it improves or stays with the prequels.

All the nine Star Wars movies are worth watching. I might see this today.

dimejinky99 wrote:You were doing so well...and then

Midichlorians are stupid, but at least they make internal sense. They demystify something for which the mystification was part of the charm, and provide a mechanic no one was asking for, but one that is largely (if you don't look too closely) consistent with what we know of the world.

The idea that there is a prophecy to bring balance to the force makes no sense. It's not just a story the jedi tell themselves since Anakin was apparently some sort of force created christ child, but the idea of bringing balance to the force (which implies a balancing of light and dark) by eradicating the sith is silly. How are the sith preventing balance - by wanting to wipe out the jedi? Wiping out the sith to prevent that creates just as equal an imbalance. Was the goal ultimatley to wipe out all Force orders? That's a bold (and interesting) direction that luke alludes to in his discussions with Rey, but in the end he abandons that commitment to support the resistance and empower Rey to refound the Jedi - and there is no evidence that this is what lucas envisioned when he came up with the idea.


If Anders or someone else could explain what this means I would be interested in reading it

stip wrote:i hate that chosen one prophecy so much - it makes no damn sense

One of the most overlooked (or under-considered) aspects of the prequel trilogy is Yoda's comment on the prophecy, thereby giving voice to Lucas's ideas about the flimsy and untrustworthy nature of prophecy. The point of the prophecy is that they got it wrong. Lucas via Yoda is trying to tell us not to put stock in prophecy. The Prophecy of the Chosen One makes no damn sense by design. It's not supposed to make sense. It's just a dumb prophecy. The Jedi putting their faith in it, is another flaw within the order as a whole.

Prophecy in fantasy and science fiction usually come true. It is something for the reader/viewer to ponder on, but more importantly the characters as well. Just look at Game Of Thrones, the books especially are filled with them, and they all seem to come true. Stip recently recommended The Prince Of Nothing series to me, a series I had more or less put on the shelf for a decade, but I have now read it. It too, has prophecy at the core of its story. Therefore it is not strange that Star Wars also delve into the land of prophecy.

stip wrote:The idea that there is a prophecy to bring balance to the force makes no sense. It's not just a story the jedi tell themselves since Anakin was apparently some sort of force created christ child, but the idea of bringing balance to the force (which implies a balancing of light and dark) by eradicating the sith is silly. How are the sith preventing balance - by wanting to wipe out the jedi? Wiping out the sith to prevent that creates just as equal an imbalance. Was the goal ultimatley to wipe out all Force orders? That's a bold (and interesting) direction that luke alludes to in his discussions with Rey, but in the end he abandons that commitment to support the resistance and empower Rey to refound the Jedi - and there is no evidence that this is what lucas envisioned when he came up with the idea. If Anders or someone else could explain what this means I would be interested in reading it

There are different ways to view this prophecy, which makes it much more interesting than it seems on the surface. What is balance anyway? What exactly does the prophecy say? Does the prophecy have to be a good thing? Can characters misinterpret it?

"a child will be born from the Force and will bring balance to it"

At the end of ROTS, there appears to be two Sith and two Jedi, a form of balance. At the end of ROTJ, there is only Luke, and one can argue if he is yet a Jedi. Perhaps there are no Jedi and no Sith left, a form of balance.

To the Jedi, the Sith bring the force out of balance. They read the prophecy not as a treath, but as a revelation. To them, if it is even true, it will bring an end to the Sith, and the Jedi can live in peace.

However, if we consider the prophecy to be true, it says that someone will bring balance to the force, it does not say that they will kill the Jedi or the Sith. Perhaps it is Rey that will bring balance to the force. What is the force really? The force is not the Sith and the Jedi, but something greater.

Anders wrote:

stip wrote:The idea that there is a prophecy to bring balance to the force makes no sense. It's not just a story the jedi tell themselves since Anakin was apparently some sort of force created christ child, but the idea of bringing balance to the force (which implies a balancing of light and dark) by eradicating the sith is silly. How are the sith preventing balance - by wanting to wipe out the jedi? Wiping out the sith to prevent that creates just as equal an imbalance. Was the goal ultimatley to wipe out all Force orders? That's a bold (and interesting) direction that luke alludes to in his discussions with Rey, but in the end he abandons that commitment to support the resistance and empower Rey to refound the Jedi - and there is no evidence that this is what lucas envisioned when he came up with the idea. If Anders or someone else could explain what this means I would be interested in reading it

There are different ways to view this prophecy, which makes it much more interesting that it seems on the surface. What is balance anyway? What exactly does the prophecy say? Does the prophecy have to be a good thing? Can characters misinterpret it?

"a child will be born from the Force and will bring balance to it"

At the end of ROTS, there appears to be two Sith and two Jedi, a form of balance. At the end of ROTJ, there is only Luke, and one can argue if he is yet a Jedi. Perhaps there are no Jedi and no Sith left, a form of balance.

To the Jedi, the Sith bring the force out of balance. They read the prophecy not as a treath, but as a revelation. To them, if it is even true, it will bring an end to the Sith, and the Jedi can live in peace.

However, if we consider the prophecy to be true, it says that someone will bring balance to the force, it does not say that they will kill the Jedi or the Sith. Perhaps it is Rey that will bring balance to the force. What is the force really? The force is not the Sith and the Jedi, but something greater.

This is the key point. The mistake the Jedi make is thinking it only means one thing.

Anders wrote:Prophecy in fantasy and science fiction usually come true. It is something for the reader/viewer to ponder on, but more importantly the characters as well. Just look at Game Of Thrones, the books especially are filled with them, and they all seem to come true. Stip recently recommended The Prince Of Nothing series to me, a series I had more or less put on the shelf for a decade, but I have now read it. It too, has prophecy at the core of its story. Therefore it is not strange that Star Wars also delve into the land of prophecy.

Of course. But Lucas wasn't interested in exploring prophecy the way other sci-fi/fantasy properties do. He wanted to turn it on it's head. There is no correct "answer" to the Prophecy of the Chosen One.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:Prophecy in fantasy and science fiction usually come true. It is something for the reader/viewer to ponder on, but more importantly the characters as well. Just look at Game Of Thrones, the books especially are filled with them, and they all seem to come true. Stip recently recommended The Prince Of Nothing series to me, a series I had more or less put on the shelf for a decade, but I have now read it. It too, has prophecy at the core of its story. Therefore it is not strange that Star Wars also delve into the land of prophecy.

Of course. But Lucas wasn't interested in exploring prophecy the way other sci-fi/fantasy properties do. He wanted to turn it on it's head. There is no correct "answer" to the Prophecy of the Chosen One.

Lyrics in music are open to interpretation. It is so with movies as well. Doesn't really matter what Lucas thought. The canon speaks for itself.

durdencommatyler wrote:

stip wrote:i hate that chosen one prophecy so much - it makes no damn sense

One of the most overlooked (or under-considered) aspects of the prequel trilogy is Yoda's comment on the prophecy, thereby giving voice to Lucas's ideas about the flimsy and untrustworthy nature of prophecy. The point of the prophecy is that they got it wrong. Lucas via Yoda is trying to tell us not to put stock in prophecy. The Prophecy of the Chosen One makes no damn sense by design. It's not supposed to make sense. It's just a dumb prophecy. The Jedi putting their faith in it, is another flaw within the order as a whole.

I love you more and more each day

Anders wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:Prophecy in fantasy and science fiction usually come true. It is something for the reader/viewer to ponder on, but more importantly the characters as well. Just look at Game Of Thrones, the books especially are filled with them, and they all seem to come true. Stip recently recommended The Prince Of Nothing series to me, a series I had more or less put on the shelf for a decade, but I have now read it. It too, has prophecy at the core of its story. Therefore it is not strange that Star Wars also delve into the land of prophecy.

Of course. But Lucas wasn't interested in exploring prophecy the way other sci-fi/fantasy properties do. He wanted to turn it on it's head. There is no correct "answer" to the Prophecy of the Chosen One.

Lyrics in music are open to interpretation. It is so with movies as well. Doesn't really matter what Lucas thought. The canon speaks for itself.

Exactly. And the canon says prophecies are stupid and the Jedi got it wrong.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:Prophecy in fantasy and science fiction usually come true. It is something for the reader/viewer to ponder on, but more importantly the characters as well. Just look at Game Of Thrones, the books especially are filled with them, and they all seem to come true. Stip recently recommended The Prince Of Nothing series to me, a series I had more or less put on the shelf for a decade, but I have now read it. It too, has prophecy at the core of its story. Therefore it is not strange that Star Wars also delve into the land of prophecy.

Of course. But Lucas wasn't interested in exploring prophecy the way other sci-fi/fantasy properties do. He wanted to turn it on it's head. There is no correct "answer" to the Prophecy of the Chosen One.

Lyrics in music are open to interpretation. It is so with movies as well. Doesn't really matter what Lucas thought. The canon speaks for itself.

Exactly. And the canon says prophecies are stupid and the Jedi got it wrong.

The Jedi got it wrong, at least partially. I agree. It doesn’t make a judgement on prophecies though, how could it?

To me, the most interesting aspect of the prophecy is the idea of balance. As others have already mentioned, what is balance? If the Force had a consciousness of its own, how would it define balance? It seems like the new trilogy is moving away from the old Jedi idea of a more literal balance (two of them, two of us, etc) and into a wider definition. The manipulating the Force, using the Force the wrong way or in unnatural ways, regardless of literal numbers, creates a ripple or a potential imbalance in the Force. Or maybe we're should be dealing with the idea of balance on an individual level. Maybe people should be balanced within the Force and the Force is out of balance when people are out of balance.

These ideas/questions are far more meaningful and interesting to me, especially as we move forward with the mythology, than a dumb prophesy.

Anders wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:Prophecy in fantasy and science fiction usually come true. It is something for the reader/viewer to ponder on, but more importantly the characters as well. Just look at Game Of Thrones, the books especially are filled with them, and they all seem to come true. Stip recently recommended The Prince Of Nothing series to me, a series I had more or less put on the shelf for a decade, but I have now read it. It too, has prophecy at the core of its story. Therefore it is not strange that Star Wars also delve into the land of prophecy.

Of course. But Lucas wasn't interested in exploring prophecy the way other sci-fi/fantasy properties do. He wanted to turn it on it's head. There is no correct "answer" to the Prophecy of the Chosen One.

Lyrics in music are open to interpretation. It is so with movies as well. Doesn't really matter what Lucas thought. The canon speaks for itself.

Exactly. And the canon says prophecies are stupid and the Jedi got it wrong.

The Jedi got it wrong, at least partially. I agree. It doesn’t make a judgement on prophecies though, how could it?

Not a judgement, just a commentary. Which we then apply judgement to on message boards for the sake of brevity and clarity.

Anders wrote:

dimejinky99 wrote:

Anders wrote:I really don’t like or agree with how Rian views the Jedi, which is shown clearly in the Balance Of The Force extra.

I would have agreed but his position is exactly Lucas’ position on the Jedi in the prequels. The point of those movies is to show the fall of the Jedi due to their own complacency and hubris. That’s what the prequels are about. It makes perfect sense Luke after having researched and explored would reach the same conclusion. And that narrative following through from that time to luke at this point also makes complete sense.

One does not make the other right, which Lucas might also agree with, as his only quote on the movie was that it was beautifully made.

Clearly the Jedi failed in the PT, but the OT made up for it. Luke was the new hope, the new Jedi. He learnt from the old ways, and he succeeded. So there is no longer a need to tear down. The Jedi successfully defended the galaxy for more than a thousand years.

Yeah, I never understood why the Jedi must be reformed or something. For over a thousand generations the jedi have been the guardians of peace and justice in the galaxy. Before the dark times, before the Empire. So for 1000 generations everything was cool. Then one generation a threat comes along that causes an issue. The threat is resolved with the next generation (Luke), appearing to bring the Jedi back on track again.

But the Jedi suck and should end? Makes no sense. Even with Rey wanting to bring the Jedi back properly still makes Luke look like an idiot for thinking the Jedi must end since the Jedi Academy fiasco.

I think Lucas was trying to show the complacency of the Jedi in the PT, but I think Rian Johnson misinterprets this as the Jedi being cruddy for the thousand generations that they were fighting for peace and justice.

The more the Jedi are developed throughout the movies (and EU) the more it's pulled away from the simplistic examples of the Force/Jedi that the OT dealt with superbly, which in my opinion, feels like a detriment to the universe as a whole.

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

Anders wrote:Prophecy in fantasy and science fiction usually come true. It is something for the reader/viewer to ponder on, but more importantly the characters as well. Just look at Game Of Thrones, the books especially are filled with them, and they all seem to come true. Stip recently recommended The Prince Of Nothing series to me, a series I had more or less put on the shelf for a decade, but I have now read it. It too, has prophecy at the core of its story. Therefore it is not strange that Star Wars also delve into the land of prophecy.

Of course. But Lucas wasn't interested in exploring prophecy the way other sci-fi/fantasy properties do. He wanted to turn it on it's head. There is no correct "answer" to the Prophecy of the Chosen One.

Lyrics in music are open to interpretation. It is so with movies as well. Doesn't really matter what Lucas thought. The canon speaks for itself.

Exactly. And the canon says prophecies are stupid and the Jedi got it wrong.

The Jedi got it wrong, at least partially. I agree. It doesn’t make a judgement on prophecies though, how could it?

Not a judgement, just a commentary. Which we then apply judgement to on message boards for the sake of brevity and clarity.

I don’t think it gave a negative commentary on prophecies. It did however say that they can be interpreted in different ways, which is brilliant. In most fantasy the prophecy just comes true.