Red Mosquito

Rob wrote:

Mickey wrote:I'm not saying you've been brainwashed! I'm saying the terms of the debate have been set by right-wing media (this is what I mean by a mug's game!) and that, throughout this thread, and without being in any way a bad person, you're re-inscribing those terms. Tons of people might have opinions on trans sports rooted in those same de-facto normalizations of a rigid two gender binary, does that mean we should take them seriously (and thereby continue to tell trans people--hey, we're not sure if you belong)? Does that not seem cruel to you too?

Yes, it seems cruel. I don’t think Trans people need to prove anything, and should feel as though they belong, same as anyone else. I’m with you (and have been) when it comes to this “moral imperative” you speak of. I just don’t think it’s going to play out that way. The gay rights movement was much easier to sell, because no matter your morality, you couldn’t argue that gay rights affected you or anyone else in any negative way. With the Trans community, you end up with these anecdotal examples of either a kid regretting his/her transition, or a trans weightlifter breaking a record… and I just personally believe that “you have a moral imperative to support this” isn’t helping. “Mine is the moral position” doesn’t work well in politics.

My friend I do believe that you should read up on the history of the gay rights movement.

I'll try phrasing it differently one more time--I am not saying that by claiming a moral high ground you can simply ignore the conversation (though I will note that I don't personally believe in American democracy as it currently exists and think the contemporary trans panic is ultimately rooted in a deeper crisis that will not be fully solved through debate). I'm saying that if you take that moral charge seriously as outlined above, it should reframe the debate for you, and in turn allow you to reframe the debate as it stands more broadly. In this case, this means that instead of simply asserting to the claim that "sports matter," one might ask, "Why do sports matter?" Do they matter because of scholarship and career opportunities? Do they matter because of the individual pursuit of athletic excellence is a human right? Asking those questions is, to my mind, a more effective line of argumentation than saying, "well, yes, sports matter, but I do support trans people too." Because once you've accepted that it matters in itself whether Lia Thomas or a cisgendered woman wins the 500 Freestyle you have already surrendered the terms of the debate to Peterson et al., and I think the moral imperative is to not do that.

I appreciate your responses, Mickey, and will think on it. I have an uncle and cousin who are gay, and they had a real rough time when we were younger. I am aware. I should have clarified that in todays world (in America anyway), I think most people have realized that giving equal rights to the gay community hasn’t affected them. Not so in the past.

To be honest, I love the Miami Dolphins and NY Yankees, but am not really a huge follower of sports. I just don’t really know what to say when someone comes at me (knowing I’m a liberal guy) and blind sides me with a story about a swimmer or weightlifter or whatever who used to be a man, but now is a woman and beating women in some sport. I don’t think there is one answer to “why sports matter.” And certainly, I think most people aren’t giving it the thought and analysis you are. I think moral arguments don’t really work in todays divisive environment. I think the (good) desire to protect a vulnerable population ignores its challenges sometimes. I referenced the gay community because that has to do with sexuality, and at this point we’ve move beyond it, I think. Gender is something different and that’s complicated and harder to understand.

BurtReynolds wrote:The right wing pundits can always count on the wokes to respond to any concern with "racistnazibigots", deplatforming (leveraging institutional and corporate power to silence dissent), and the most palpable hatred imaginable, and the pundits know this will make them sound sane in comparison. I long for the day a liberal/leftist/whatever not only rejects this response, but actively condemns it. That person will rule the world.

I guess everyone is a Nazi.

B says we can unmake gender so yeah that’s fine. Eliminate female sports teams and let everyone regardless of whatever compete for the rosters and then let’s see how many females end up with scholarships.

If you're gonna do that, you need to eliminate cis men from sports for 5000 years since their advantage is based, at least in part, from women being banned from sports for the first 5 millennia of sport.

Wanna run that one back one more time, chief?

Cis men … you mean, like, men?

Mickey wrote:Wanna run that one back one more time, chief?

I overshot. First Olympics were 997BC. Women were allowed in 1900AD. It was only 3000 years.

This is a great example of what I mean by surrendering the terms of the debate to your reactionary opponent, even while thinking you're making a progressive point.

I'm just off on a weird tangent. No one should take that as a serious argument.

Rob wrote:I appreciate your responses, Mickey, and will think on it. I have an uncle and cousin who are gay, and they had a real rough time when we were younger. I am aware. I should have clarified that in todays world (in America anyway), I think most people have realized that giving equal rights to the gay community hasn’t affected them. Not so in the past.

To be honest, I love the Miami Dolphins and NY Yankees, but am not really a huge follower of sports. I just don’t really know what to say when someone comes at me (knowing I’m a liberal guy) and blind sides me with a story about a swimmer or weightlifter or whatever who used to be a man, but now is a woman and beating women in some sport. I don’t think there is one answer to “why sports matter.” And certainly, I think most people aren’t giving it the thought and analysis you are. I think moral arguments don’t really work in todays divisive environment. I think the (good) desire to protect a vulnerable population ignores its challenges sometimes. I referenced the gay community because that has to do with sexuality, and at this point we’ve move beyond it, I think. Gender is something different and that’s complicated and harder to understand.

Once upon a time women were considered a vulnerable population too. I guess that was a different ERA.

Tavistock gender clinic ‘to be sued by 1,000 families`: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4e7f ... 7a202c7457



It's not anti-trans to be concerned about this, it is pro-child to ensure children with gender dysphoria get the proper treatment (which might end up being blockers).

If the families and kids weren't fully informed and consenting, that's not acceptable. for any kind of care.

B, roughly 8% of 13-17 year olds self-id as trans. That's over 300,000 kids. Do you really, really, really think it is remotely believable that only 5 of them play sports for their schools?

Bi_3 wrote:B, roughly 8% of 13-17 year olds self-id as trans. That's over 300,000 kids. Do you really, really, really think it is remotely believable that only 5 of them play sports for their schools?

Maybe, but the people most pissed about it don't seem able to find them.

Bi_3 wrote:B, roughly 8% of 13-17 year olds self-id as trans. That's over 300,000 kids. Do you really, really, really think it is remotely believable that only 5 of them play sports for their schools?

Your percentages are wrong here, there's way more fucking teenagers in America.

Mickey wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:B, roughly 8% of 13-17 year olds self-id as trans. That's over 300,000 kids. Do you really, really, really think it is remotely believable that only 5 of them play sports for their schools?

Your percentages are wrong here, there's way more fucking teenagers in America.

His decimal point is just in the wrong place. If the percentage of trans kids was 8%, the world would probably be very different.

It's 0.8%.

hormone blockers are completely reversible and are used to treat a number of things, not just gender dysphoria

the majority of hormone treatment effects are also reversible; afaik the one thing that isn't when it comes to estrogen is breast growth