Red Mosquito

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:00 am**

BurtReynolds wrote:
stip wrote:Then again, I also continue to believe that this New Hope clone stuff is overblown in the way that only the internet knows how to overblow, animated in part by a healthy mixture of the usual 'everyone likes this so I'll demonstrate my edginess by picking it apart' and insurance against the possibility that these age like the prequels.
yeah the reason people disagree with you is because of some sort of personality flaw.

What other reason could there possibly be?!

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:03 am**

stip wrote:
BurtReynolds wrote:
stip wrote:
McParadigm wrote:If it wasn't, then I saw it posted somewhere else. Maybe redlettermedia...their fans were really taking them to task for going easy on this movie.
It's not surprising the RLM guy liked it. It feels precisely like a classic star wars movie with classic characters.
More than "feels". Its a copy through and through, but only a copy.
Not much more than Jedi is a copy of a new hope. This movie takes elements from all three movies (which makes sense for reestablishing the world), often inverts or alters them in clever or satisfying ways, and wraps the whole thing up in a standard hero's journey origin story.

Its a matter of degree. Taking a few elements makes sense. Capturing the look and feel is fine. Wholesale copying is not. And it doesn't so much alter or invert things from the originals as it merely shuffles things around in a mechanical, meaningless way. There is nothing interesting about another Death Star, but bigger, or making Luke Skywalker a girl, or any of the other completely uninteresting ways it slightly changes things.

This is the extent to which thing are "altered":
How to blow up a really big Death Star: combine 1 part trench run in New Hope and one part shield generator from Return of the Jedi (minus ewoks of course).

That isn't interesting. And this movie is made up entirely of things like this. This isn't "capturing the look and feel of the originals". This is regurgitation.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:04 am**

There is no trench run. The trench run was a series of claustrophobic runs down a narrow trench where the good guys couldn't defend themselves while the horror movie villain picked them off one by one. This is flying inside the superstructure to physically shoot at vulnerable targets. It's 100% a Jedi rip off!

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:05 am**

stip, it is factually incorrect to say there is no trench run in this movie.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:06 am**

Stop it. All of you.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:07 am**

But I agree there isn't anything 'new' there, and it wasn't my favorite sequence. It was not as thrilling as the Jedi version. But the stuff that this is backdrop for was great (the han-ren-rey-finn confrontations and the impact these had on their characters).

There is nothing interesting about another Death Star, but bigger, or making Luke Skywalker a girl, or any of the other completely uninteresting ways it slightly changes things.

Rey and Luke are pretty different characters, beyond the fact that they're both going to become jedi and came from a backwater world. Luke came from a loving family, had someone watching over him, and was motivated by a desire to prove himself a hero. Rey was alone, isolated, and constantly pulled back towards her beginnings. She had to fight her journey whereas Luke embraces his. What pushes her is a need to find a place to belong to. She starts out as more accomplished and self-assured than Luke, so that she never feels a need to have to prove herself. Hers is, at least initially, much more of an inner journey whereas Luke's arc in the first film is more the chance for him to become the hero he always dreamed himself being.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:08 am**

LoathedVermin72 wrote:stip, it is factually incorrect to say there is no trench run in this movie.

There is something approximating a trench they need to use to access the super structure, but again it is pulled from the Jedi version, not the New Hope version. What makes the trench run the trench run is not the presence of a ditch.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:21 am**

http://www.vulture.com/2015/12/force-aw ... ewbie.html

That article was amusing. Someone's notes while watching FA having never seen any star wars movies.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:22 am**

stip wrote:These movies are going to have jedi, lightsabers, mentors, big space stations, ships fighting each other, planets with one environment. I think we'll always be able to find similarities. The key is whether or not the similarities are in the service of something interesting.

This movie has far more in common with the originals than just those things you mentioned. Much, MUCH more. Its not just the lightsabers and Death Stars. The copying and recombining would be somewhat forgivable, but none of its is in service of anything interesting, and certainly not anything new.

Its not just a copy of the superficial details (which aren't superficial with regards to Star Wars). It copies characters, plot points, themes, tone, pacing, entire scenes... virtually everything. Nearly every single thing in the movie, from surface details on up, is taken from the originals. And I don't mean in a vague "hero's journey" way, but specifically lifted from the first three Star Wars films.

To make matters worse, they are not executed well. None of it has any weight. Rey and Finn are ok (they are essentially mixtures of Han and Luke), but the Han/Leia/Kylo relationship is poorly defined and Han's death is flubbed for several reasons. Its all very rushed. I have no idea of the scope of anything. I'm not even sure of what was accomplished at the end.

It's classic JJ Abrams through and through. This is the only film he could possibly make.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:25 am**

yeah, i dont think luke and rey are the same characters. And thats something im really hoping we can see totally in the next two movies.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:25 am**

I'm watching ROTJ and the Emperor's make-up really is some of the best in movie history. WTH happened in ROTS??!

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:28 am**

stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:stip, it is factually incorrect to say there is no trench run in this movie.
There is something approximating a trench they need to use to access the super structure, but again it is pulled from the Jedi version, not the New Hope version. What makes the trench run the trench run is not the presence of a ditch.

You're right, though. It's even more of a creatively devoid copy than I initially stated. I was giving it too much credit saying that it stole from 2 things instead of 1.

At least Jedi has a lot of different ships to watch explode. All this movie had was TIE fighters and XWings. Dd they not have the budget for anything else? wtf?

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:29 am**

BurtReynolds wrote:
stip wrote:These movies are going to have jedi, lightsabers, mentors, big space stations, ships fighting each other, planets with one environment. I think we'll always be able to find similarities. The key is whether or not the similarities are in the service of something interesting.
This movie has far more in common with the originals than just those things you mentioned. Much, MUCH more. Its not just the lightsabers and Death Stars. The copying and recombining would be somewhat forgivable, but none of its is in service of anything interesting, and certainly not anything new.

Its not just a copy of the superficial details (which aren't superficial with regards to Star Wars). It copies characters, plot points, themes, tone, pacing, entire scenes... virtually everything. Nearly every single thing in the movie, from surface details on up, is taken from the originals. And I don't mean in a vague "hero's journey" way, but specifically lifted from the first three Star Wars films.

To make matters worse, they are not executed well. None of it has any weight. Rey and Finn are ok (they are essentially mixtures of Han and Luke), but the Han/Leia/Kylo relationship is poorly defined and Han's death is flubbed for several reasons. Its all very rushed. I have no idea of the scope of anything. I'm not even sure of what was accomplished at the end.

It's classic JJ Abrams through and through. This is the only film he could possibly make.

It's the bolded part that really does it for me. If you don't think they executed any of this stuff well then so be it. I disagree, obviously, but i've got no argument with that. But that's the core of the problem, I think. I suppose if more of this felt 'new' at least you'd have that going for you.

I have more trouble understanding Devin Faraci's review where he gets hung up on similarities to the point of distraction but he positively raves about the new characters and how excited he is to see what happens to them.

Star Wars: The Force Awakens is okay

is his conclusion after spending 1500 words praising the 'monumental' new characters.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:30 am**

LoathedVermin72 wrote:I'm watching ROTJ and the Emperor's make-up really is some of the best in movie history. WTH happened in ROTS??!

it's so bad.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:33 am**

BurtReynolds wrote:
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:stip, it is factually incorrect to say there is no trench run in this movie.
There is something approximating a trench they need to use to access the super structure, but again it is pulled from the Jedi version, not the New Hope version. What makes the trench run the trench run is not the presence of a ditch.
You're right, though. It's even more of a creatively devoid copy than I initially stated. I was giving it too much credit saying that it stole from 2 things instead of 1

At least Jedi has a lot of different ships to watch explode. All this movie had was TIE fighters and XWings. Dd they not have the budget for anything else? wtf?

If you're going to trash it I at least want you to be accurate!

That two hour jedi council thing Dime posted actually goes into this. In the novels and that other stuff most of us aren't going to read (apparently the film novelization is really bad) they make a point that the resistance is supposed to be really underfunded, hardly has any ships--basically a bunch of old X-wings. Leia got pissed they weren't going to rebuild the military to fight off the First Order and so she starts her little splinter military without much support.

Not that that gives you more ship designs, but at least it explains why you didn't get them.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:33 am**

If DcT would just tell us what he thinks we could lock this thread and put all of this behind us!

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:39 am**

stip wrote:If DcT would just tell us what he thinks we could lock this thread and put all of this behind us!

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:39 am**

Spoiler: show

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:41 am**

Vader's weakness in ROTJ is probably the most moving thing in all of SW for me. That final duel with Luke is so powerful.

Posted: **Sun December 27, 2015 12:42 am**

It is. He really developed quite nicely over those movies. He had no character beyond being a scary looking guy who dug the force in A New Hope. An amazing on screen presence with terrific voice over work, but no real character to speak of.

Red Mosquito

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