Red Mosquito

That brief choral section while Luke and Vader duel is maybe my favorite bit of score John Williams ever composed. It elevates that sequence to mythological heights.

This movie also pisses me off for the same reason Into Darkness pissed me off: Abrams made everything so small and mundane. Space travel isn't dangerous or a big deal anymore. Anyone with a used Datsun can zip anywhere in the universe without any trouble. I never got the sense that Death Star 3 was in some other solar system. It might as well have been in their backyard. No longer are you worried about warping into an asteroid field, just hop in your X-wing and fly across the galaxy. Death Stars are a dime a dozen, lightsabers are just kinda shitty swords, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea if this Order was a big threat or minor inconvenience or what they controlled. Did the good guys kill them all in the end? Was anything gained or lost? I don't know what any of this shit means. I know I don't care.

If I have to find those answers in secondary merchandise or creator interviews, you've fucked up your movie.

Its not nearly as bad as the unforgivable teleporting or calling anywhere in Into Darkness, but its still a flaw here.

Fun fact from that Jedi council video. Apparently Snoke's music theme is very similar to the music played in Revenge of the Sith when palpetine talks about darth plagius.

I hope Kylo Ren becomes Darth Villanus.

LoathedVermin72 wrote:That brief choral section while Luke and Vader duel is maybe my favorite bit of score John Williams ever composed. It elevates that sequence to mythological heights.

Nobody gives a shit about a 30 year old movie about space wizards, LV. Stay on target.

BurtReynolds wrote:This movie also pisses me off for the same reason Into Darkness pissed me off: Abrams made everything so small and mundane. Space travel isn't dangerous or a big deal anymore. Anyone with a used Datsun can zip anywhere in the universe without any trouble. I never got the sense that Death Star 3 was in some other solar system. It might as well have been in their backyard. No longer are you worried about warping into an asteroid field, just hop in your X-wing and fly across the galaxy. Death Stars are a dime a dozen, lightsabers are just kinda shitty swords, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea if this Order was a big threat or minor inconvenience or what they controlled. Did the good guys kill them all in the end? Was anything gained or lost? I don't know what any of this shit means. I know I don't care.

If I have to find those answers in secondary merchandise or creator interviews, you've fucked up your movie.

Its not nearly as bad as the unforgivable teleporting or calling anywhere in Into Darkness, but its still a flaw here.

All fair points (though I disagree with the lightsaber). This just breezed right past me since I was so wrapped up in the characters.

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:This movie also pisses me off for the same reason Into Darkness pissed me off: Abrams made everything so small and mundane. Space travel isn't dangerous or a big deal anymore. Anyone with a used Datsun can zip anywhere in the universe without any trouble. I never got the sense that Death Star 3 was in some other solar system. It might as well have been in their backyard. No longer are you worried about warping into an asteroid field, just hop in your X-wing and fly across the galaxy. Death Stars are a dime a dozen, lightsabers are just kinda shitty swords, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea if this Order was a big threat or minor inconvenience or what they controlled. Did the good guys kill them all in the end? Was anything gained or lost? I don't know what any of this shit means. I know I don't care.

If I have to find those answers in secondary merchandise or creator interviews, you've fucked up your movie.

Its not nearly as bad as the unforgivable teleporting or calling anywhere in Into Darkness, but its still a flaw here.

All fair points (though I disagree with the lightsaber). This just breezed right past me since I was so wrapped up in the characters.

I'd give more credit to the performances than the characters themselves (sorry LV).

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Vader's weakness in ROTJ is probably the most moving thing in all of SW for me. That final duel with Luke is so powerful.

It's such a great character journey pay-off moment.

The OT is ripe with development over long stretches. It takes three movies for Luke to fully shed his impulsiveness and self-pity, and just as long for him to go from "loosely Force aware" to actual Jedi powers. Han may lose his cynicism in the first movie, but it takes him a whole other movie to be brave enough to admit to that change. Leia is righteous to the point of putting up walls, for just as long. Everybody in that story has need for personal change, and achieves it over a very long journey.

And that journey feels more powerful because they are also fallible fighters, and capable of failure. Luke's lack of abilities at the start is clear (even by the end of Empire he is only capable of getting toyed with by Vader), Obi Wan is past his prime, Han is a great pilot (although he never really runs circles around anyone) and a good (not miraculous) shot, but he's as capable of being conned as he is good at conning others. He's not a wizard mechanic, he's not a moral touchstone, and he's not all that great a problem solver. In fact, I'd say most of the main character's definitions at the start are down to their imperfections.

The Darth Vader reveal in empire might be the iconic moment, but it is the character growth more than any "reveal" that makes that trilogy great.

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:This movie also pisses me off for the same reason Into Darkness pissed me off: Abrams made everything so small and mundane. Space travel isn't dangerous or a big deal anymore. Anyone with a used Datsun can zip anywhere in the universe without any trouble. I never got the sense that Death Star 3 was in some other solar system. It might as well have been in their backyard. No longer are you worried about warping into an asteroid field, just hop in your X-wing and fly across the galaxy. Death Stars are a dime a dozen, lightsabers are just kinda shitty swords, etc. etc. etc. I have no idea if this Order was a big threat or minor inconvenience or what they controlled. Did the good guys kill them all in the end? Was anything gained or lost? I don't know what any of this shit means. I know I don't care.

If I have to find those answers in secondary merchandise or creator interviews, you've fucked up your movie.

Its not nearly as bad as the unforgivable teleporting or calling anywhere in Into Darkness, but its still a flaw here.

All fair points (though I disagree with the lightsaber). This just breezed right past me since I was so wrapped up in the characters.

I'd give more credit to the performances than the characters themselves (sorry LV).

It's too early for me to know where I come down on this, so I'm using them interchangably.

McParadigm wrote:

LoathedVermin72 wrote:Vader's weakness in ROTJ is probably the most moving thing in all of SW for me. That final duel with Luke is so powerful.

It's such a great character journey pay-off moment.

The OT is ripe with development over long stretches. It takes three movies for Luke to fully shed his impulsiveness and self-pity, and just as long for him to go from "loosely Force aware" to actual Jedi powers. Han may lose his cynicism in the first movie, but it takes him a whole other movie to be brave enough to admit to that change. Leia is righteous to the point of putting up walls, for just as long. Everybody in that story has need for personal change, and achieves it over a very long journey.

And that journey feels more powerful because they are also fallible fighters, and capable of failure. Luke's lack of abilities at the start is clear (even by the end of Empire he is only capable of getting toyed with by Vader), Obi Wan is past his prime, Han is a great pilot (although he never really runs circles around anyone) and a good (not miraculous) shot, but he's as capable of being conned as he is good at conning others. He's not a wizard mechanic, he's not a moral touchstone, and he's not all that great a problem solver. In fact, I'd say most of the main character's definitions at the start are down to their imperfections.

The Darth Vader reveal in empire might be the iconic moment, but it is the character growth more than any "reveal" that makes that trilogy great.

it is, but you're definitely left with the sense at the end of FA that there is much more journey ahead of these characters. And FA, to its credit, doesn't play the reveal game. The only 'reveal' that exists is Kylo Ren's parentage, and it's not revealed as much as it is something we causally learn about when it comes up in conversation, since it's not a secret in that universe.

And since you've got that mary sue critique of rey in there it's worth nothing that in neither the OT nor likely here is the relevant journey going to be about people's powers. Luke's growing ability in the force is not what makes his journey interesting. Han doesn't become a better pilot, shot, or problem solver. Star Wars wouldn't work if it was reduced to a training montage. The amount of strength these characters do or do not have is irrelevant, especially as it is clear that the movie will ramp up the threats they face to keep parity (neither Ren nor Rey are fully trained). What matters is their journey.

Luke's growing ability in the force is not what makes his journey interesting.

It absolutely IS a piece of it, because his Force training/development is a physical representation of his inner conflict. The need for peace and acceptance, the impulsive reactions, the unchecked anger...all of it plays out as a part of his talent journey. And he cannot be a great "warrior" until he either gives in to his failings conpletely...or absolutely overcomes them. Unlike in the prequels, he doesn't get to be a Force-fed badass purely by way of "giftedness."

Han doesn't become a better pilot, shot, or problem solver.

That's true. There's a whole range of things we see him be mediocre-to-bad at, and they aren't changed by all this because they aren't tied to his internal journey.

the movie will ramp up the threats they face

The "sequel ramp-up" pretty much never pays off in a good way. If you've left your characters so little personal growth potential that the only way to move things forward is to just keep increasing the bad guy of the week, and the size of the fights, you end up making increasingly preposterous schlock. Or the Avengers. Which is the same thing.

Can we form our own RM writer's group? Star Wars fanfic only, though.

McParadigm wrote:

Luke's growing ability in the force is not what makes his journey interesting.

It absolutely IS a piece of it, because his Force training/development is a physical representation of his inner conflict. The need for peace and acceptance, the impulsive reactions, the unchecked anger...all of it plays out as a part of his talent journey. And he cannot be a great "warrior" until he either gives in to his failings conpletely...or absolutely overcomes them. Unlike in the prequels, he doesn't get to be a Force-fed badass purely by way of "giftedness."

That's true, but this again has less to do with the level of power he has and more to do with his internal conflict. Luke would have the same struggles if he displayed the comparatively limited skill set in the OT or the overpowered displays of the prequels. They could have conveyed all of that without the training, though it was a perfectly acceptable way to do so.

Both Rey and Ren are obviously going to be strong in the force. But what will make them interesting is how they grow (or fail to grow) in response to that power and their understanding of what it is for. We've already seen a lot of that with Ren. Much less so with Rey, only because thus far that has not been a relevant part of her journey (and for all we know it may never be an important part, and they cover that story inversely with Ren). Finn has similar elements to Han. Ren has similar elements to Anakin (or an inverted Luke). Although they are both your centerpiece Jedi Rey's arc thus far in terms of her personal development doesn't really parallel Luke's. No one in the series thus far has really had a similar arc.

McParadigm wrote:

the movie will ramp up the threats they face

The "sequel ramp-up" pretty much never pays off in a good way. If you've left your characters so little personal growth potential that the only way to move things forward is to just keep increasing the bad guy of the week, and the size of the fights, you end up making increasingly preposterous schlock. Or the Avengers. Which is the same thing.

That wasn't my point. The growth of these characters (if this ends up being a worthwhile story) will be outside of their power. My point was that if Rey is starting from a stronger place than the OT characters (and she is, though less than the prequel characters) the movie will ratchet up physical threats when there is a need to challenge her in that way. But those challenges will be of secondary importance, or will ramp up organically alongside the main bad guy (who, having survived the first film is probably set up to be your primary antagonist--not a flavor of the week)

And that's one of the most intriguing elements of the movie--we have a primary antagonist who is not yet fully formed either--who will be simultaneously growing as a character alongside the primary protagonist. And they are both powerful enough (Ren is certainly more powerful, but he also seems to have more psychological weaknesses) that they will challenge each other as the grow.

BurtReynolds wrote:Can we form our own RM writer's group? Star Wars fanfic only, though.

I prefer to outsource my imagination to the professionals.

and then critique the work they do

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can we form our own RM writer's group? Star Wars fanfic only, though.

I prefer to outsource my imagination to the professionals.

If we all worked together, I have no doubt we could make something slightly better than Point Break.

I've got some ideas for the soundtrack

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can we form our own RM writer's group? Star Wars fanfic only, though.

I prefer to outsource my imagination to the professionals.

If we all worked together, I have no doubt we could make something slightly better than Point Break.

But not as good as Genisys

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can we form our own RM writer's group? Star Wars fanfic only, though.

I prefer to outsource my imagination to the professionals.

If we all worked together, I have no doubt we could make something slightly better than Point Break.

But not as good as Genisys

We just need some really shitty actors.

BurtReynolds wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

stip wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:Can we form our own RM writer's group? Star Wars fanfic only, though.

I prefer to outsource my imagination to the professionals.

If we all worked together, I have no doubt we could make something slightly better than Point Break.

But not as good as Genisys

We just need some really shitty actors.

why do they have to be so exaggerated in every expression