Red Mosquito

Anders wrote:

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:

B wrote:I think people who really like Finn were hurt by how his story was underused and contradictory to itself and this stupid "I have to tell you something, Rey" plotline was a distraction without a point.

I think those people were hurt by TLJ, not tRoS. Also riser people need to calm the fuck down and pay attention to Rise.

His side quest in TLJ was a critical part of his learning about the world he's put himself into since leaving the New Order. He was in a great position to move his philosophy forward in TRoS and lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a force for the end of War.

Instead he just killed a bunch of his old buddies in the movie's finale.

And I don't know what your second sentence means.

His side quest in TLJ was the worst sequence of scenes in any Star Wars movie, and ended up in complete failure.

Most of the storylines end in failure, though. Failure is a key theme in the film.

epilogue wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

epilogue wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:

epilogue wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:And let me clarified, TROS has the emotional resonance of a very very loud fart that resembles finn´s performance of his RAAAAAEEEEYY yelling.

Ooh!-Wee! You really hate Boyega. My but really got to you. You can't talk about this movie without misspelling Rey's make in all caps. I love it.

I love him. I was super exited to have him in these movies, and i kinda liked Finn in TFA. Then his character is a risible puppy. Even he agreed with that.

It's okay to not like him, TVG.

I really do. It’s a shame he got this lousy “character”

Now you're calling Boyega lousy?!!

Wow...

What

I knew you hated Boyega but I didn't know you hated him that much.

I love him I just say it.

Im super confused right now

epilogue wrote:

Anders wrote:

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:

B wrote:I think people who really like Finn were hurt by how his story was underused and contradictory to itself and this stupid "I have to tell you something, Rey" plotline was a distraction without a point.

I think those people were hurt by TLJ, not tRoS. Also riser people need to calm the fuck down and pay attention to Rise.

His side quest in TLJ was a critical part of his learning about the world he's put himself into since leaving the New Order. He was in a great position to move his philosophy forward in TRoS and lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a force for the end of War.

Instead he just killed a bunch of his old buddies in the movie's finale.

And I don't know what your second sentence means.

His side quest in TLJ was the worst sequence of scenes in any Star Wars movie, and ended up in complete failure.

Most of the storylines end in failure, though. Failure is a key theme in the film.

JJ dropped the ball on really making that sequence worthwhile. The failure is the key theme and Finn learned a lot.

JJ took the next movie and completely ignored him and all that setup.

Strat wrote:

epilogue wrote:

Anders wrote:

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:

B wrote:I think people who really like Finn were hurt by how his story was underused and contradictory to itself and this stupid "I have to tell you something, Rey" plotline was a distraction without a point.

I think those people were hurt by TLJ, not tRoS. Also riser people need to calm the fuck down and pay attention to Rise.

His side quest in TLJ was a critical part of his learning about the world he's put himself into since leaving the New Order. He was in a great position to move his philosophy forward in TRoS and lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a force for the end of War.

Instead he just killed a bunch of his old buddies in the movie's finale.

And I don't know what your second sentence means.

His side quest in TLJ was the worst sequence of scenes in any Star Wars movie, and ended up in complete failure.

Most of the storylines end in failure, though. Failure is a key theme in the film.

JJ dropped the ball on really making that sequence worthwhile. The failure is the key theme and Finn learned a lot.

JJ took the next movie and completely ignored him and all that setup.

I think if the scenes and the idea had been carried out in a more meaningful and entertaining way, it would have been more logical for JJ to do a direct follow up on it. Instead it was better left ignored.

Strat wrote:

epilogue wrote:

Anders wrote:

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:

B wrote:I think people who really like Finn were hurt by how his story was underused and contradictory to itself and this stupid "I have to tell you something, Rey" plotline was a distraction without a point.

I think those people were hurt by TLJ, not tRoS. Also riser people need to calm the fuck down and pay attention to Rise.

His side quest in TLJ was a critical part of his learning about the world he's put himself into since leaving the New Order. He was in a great position to move his philosophy forward in TRoS and lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a force for the end of War.

Instead he just killed a bunch of his old buddies in the movie's finale.

And I don't know what your second sentence means.

His side quest in TLJ was the worst sequence of scenes in any Star Wars movie, and ended up in complete failure.

Most of the storylines end in failure, though. Failure is a key theme in the film.

JJ dropped the ball on really making that sequence worthwhile. The failure is the key theme and Finn learned a lot.

JJ took the next movie and completely ignored him and all that setup.

I disagree. Over a year passed between TLJ and RoS. TLJ picks up immediately after TFA.

The lesson in TLJ was learned and applied and we moved on. We know it was applied by who Finn is in RoS. He is the leader he ran from in the previous films.

Structurally speaking, Finn's journey is complete in TLJ. And that carries through in RoS. It's not his story. He's still learning (his Force powers, for example), but the change has happened. Who Finn is and what he does in the final chapter is appropriate and meaningful from a storytelling standpoint.

Anders wrote:

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:

B wrote:I think people who really like Finn were hurt by how his story was underused and contradictory to itself and this stupid "I have to tell you something, Rey" plotline was a distraction without a point.

I think those people were hurt by TLJ, not tRoS. Also riser people need to calm the fuck down and pay attention to Rise.

His side quest in TLJ was a critical part of his learning about the world he's put himself into since leaving the New Order. He was in a great position to move his philosophy forward in TRoS and lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a force for the end of War.

Instead he just killed a bunch of his old buddies in the movie's finale.

And I don't know what your second sentence means.

His side quest in TLJ was the worst sequence of scenes in any Star Wars movie, and ended up in complete failure.

The point of that from storytelling wasn't for him to succeed. It was for him to learn. For that, I appreciate it.

The casino scenes were cloying and stupid, but they still teed up Finn for a hole in one during TRoS. Abrams shanked it into the woods.

Abrams shanked it... please elaborate. What would you have done? How did he "shank" the character?

epilogue wrote:Abrams shanked it... please elaborate. What would you have done? How did he "shank" the character?

I would have put Finn and the other defector Stormtroopers on the Star Destroyer they were attacking, but they would have shot their way in by stunning Stormtroopers. Maybe they even lose some people along the way, but they refuse to kill any other brainwashed soldiers.

Then they hack communications and put a call out throughout the ship (a la Captain America: Winter Soldier) for everyone who was forcefully taken from their families and lives to turn against the New Order and stop the launching of the army that will kill whole systems of innocent people in pursuit of more of the same power that enslaved those soldiers.

Then Stormtroopers working on that ship sabotage the McGuffin communicator thing that activates the whole army, and mutiny against that evil leader guy, instead of them wiping out a whole ship full of innocent, brainwashed slaves.

That's assuming all of them were brainwashed slaves. Do we know that? Just because there are some doesn't mean they all are.

epilogue wrote:That's assuming all of them were brainwashed slaves. Do we know that? Just because there are some doesn't mean they all are.

You don't need them ALL to be ... just enough, and Finn and Hux have said that's where they get Stormtroopers.

B wrote:

Anders wrote:

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:

B wrote:I think people who really like Finn were hurt by how his story was underused and contradictory to itself and this stupid "I have to tell you something, Rey" plotline was a distraction without a point.

I think those people were hurt by TLJ, not tRoS. Also riser people need to calm the fuck down and pay attention to Rise.

His side quest in TLJ was a critical part of his learning about the world he's put himself into since leaving the New Order. He was in a great position to move his philosophy forward in TRoS and lead a Stormtrooper rebellion or become a force for the end of War.

Instead he just killed a bunch of his old buddies in the movie's finale.

And I don't know what your second sentence means.

His side quest in TLJ was the worst sequence of scenes in any Star Wars movie, and ended up in complete failure.

The point of that from storytelling wasn't for him to succeed. It was for him to learn. For that, I appreciate it.

The casino scenes were cloying and stupid, but they still teed up Finn for a hole in one during TRoS. Abrams shanked it into the woods.

Finn’s role in TROS is vital to the movie, to the final attack, and to the other characters. Far better use than in TLJ.

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:That's assuming all of them were brainwashed slaves. Do we know that? Just because there are some doesn't mean they all are.

You don't need them ALL to be ... just enough, and Finn and Hux have said that's where they get Stormtroopers.

I guess I always thought that was true of a fraction of the Stormtroopers, not a majority.

Either way, I agree that having Finn unite those like him and Jannah would have been really cool. I also think it would have been cool to have Jannah say that she knew Finn, that his legend spread through the galaxy (like Luke's) and inspired her and her crew to defect. That stuff would have been really cool.

But I the lack of those ideas doesn't ruin the movie. The filmmakers just did something different. It's like saying that Return of the Jedi is a terrible swing and a miss because they killed Boba Fett in such a stupid way. Or saying it would have been cooler if Vader had killed the Emperor with Luke's lightsaber instead of throwing down a shaft. Or saying Han should have died. Maybe any of those things would have been better done in different ways but that's not what happened.

B wrote: Abrams shanked it into the woods.

epilogue wrote:

B wrote:

epilogue wrote:That's assuming all of them were brainwashed slaves. Do we know that? Just because there are some doesn't mean they all are.

You don't need them ALL to be ... just enough, and Finn and Hux have said that's where they get Stormtroopers.

I guess I always thought that was true of a fraction of the Stormtroopers, not a majority.

Either way, I agree that having Finn unite those like him and Jannah would have been really cool. I also think it would have been cool to have Jannah say that she knew Finn, that his legend spread through the galaxy (like Luke's) and inspired her and her crew to defect. That stuff would have been really cool.

But I the lack of those ideas doesn't ruin the movie. The filmmakers just did something different. It's like saying that Return of the Jedi is a terrible swing and a miss because they killed Boba Fett in such a stupid way. Or saying it would have been cooler if Vader had killed the Emperor with Luke's lightsaber instead of throwing down a shaft. Or saying Han should have died. Maybe any of those things would have been better done in different ways but that's not what happened.

I can pick apart that movie in a lot of ways, but my problem is more general. TLJ went in a different direction than anyone was expecting. Most people didn't like that, but a lot did, and some were gonna roll with it if it ended well, but instead of starting his story at the end of TLJ Abrams appears to have taken up some of his movie to push things into a position to tell the story he originally wanted to tell in TFA.

Sure, as a director, you should get to tell the story you want, but as a director hired to tell 1/3 of a story in cooperation with other directors, you tell you story within the constraints given to you. Abrams wanted to pretend those restraints weren't there, and his finished product looked sloppy because of it.

Anyone can be powerful within the Force. Rey isn't a legacy. Ren is a legacy, but that doesn't matter. How does that change the galaxy? Tell me THAT story in TRoS, except now you can't call it TRoS, because it's the Rise of Everyone!

(and YES, I know he told 2/3rds of the story, but he didn't know that was going to happen in 2015, and it was irrelevant in 2019)

yeah, my main conflict with the sequel trilogy is thats a mess. Its not a tight unit at all, and it shows.

I think it all works. I've never understood that whole "JJ ignored TLJ" argument. There's a ton of connective tissue there. These films are in conversation with each other in interesting ways. I guess we see what we want to see.

All of that to say that none of the ST movies are perfect. Star Wars is flawed all over the place. It always has been. I think that's my biggest issue with modern-day fandom at large. People act like the OT is perfect and that the PT is imperfect but somehow charming and valuable now that we're two two decades (more or less) removed from the initial release. But the ST is somehow a pile of garbage because it suffers many of the same issues as the trilogies that came before? I don't know. Maybe if the OT had meant more to me as a kid. Maybe if it had resonated with me the way it did with y'all the ST would have felt tired and frustrating instead of like a breath of fresh air and a revitalization.

These movies are all of a piece to me -- chapters in one big story. There are highs and there are certainly lows. Times change and so context changes. But they all work together as a story to me in a successful way. It'll be interesting to see if the ST is seen with kinder eyes in 20 years.

Either way, I love the hell out of this dumb space opera. I'm glad we have these movies. I think these films are far better, more interesting, and more satisfying than The Mandalorian (for example). I'm obviously in the minority here. So be it. But I'll take the ST over the TV shows any day. The one exception being that the TV shows gave us Ahsoka, which is my favorite thing about all of Star Wars.

We've had a lot of fun these past few days. But I hope it's clear to everyone that my love and enjoyment of this movie isn't effected by anyone else's disappointment or hatred of it. I do wish y'all could see the movie that I see. I wish you guys could feel even a fraction of the excitement I feel. I wish I could give you that. Because it sucks being disappointed in something you otherwise like. I think we all know how that feels.

You can like what you like. Yknow?

It’s sposed to be just fun. Never to be tried or be undone
I figure I’ll be damned
All alone like I began

epilogue wrote:All of that to say that none of the ST movies are perfect. Star Wars is flawed all over the place. It always has been.

Pretty rare to see an "actually, the thing I love to death is not good enough for me to have higher expectations than this" defense post outside of its natural habitat: the Lightning Bolt thread.