Red Mosquito

Mickey wrote:I think if your argument is, broadly, that conservatives are underdogs with no cultural or real institutional power (the latter of which I don't buy, but we can leave that aside), but that they're trapped in a sort of death spiral of increasing frustration and lunacy because the other party doesn't offer them anything either, it's relevant to address the fact that *certain* Democrats--definitely not all of them, but some--are proposing massive changes in healthcare policy that could radically alter the fate of conservative and especially rural communities (it would probably make life worse for conservative suburban/exurban communities, which, lol, good). In other words I think Nate is basically asking why right-wing populism can't be appealed to with left-wing populism, which is a fair question and has more or less everything to do with a really vague and broad-strokes argument about why conservatives feel justifiably aggrieved.

Orpheus wrote:

Mickey wrote:I think if your argument is, broadly, that conservatives are underdogs with no cultural or real institutional power (the latter of which I don't buy, but we can leave that aside), but that they're trapped in a sort of death spiral of increasing frustration and lunacy because the other party doesn't offer them anything either, it's relevant to address the fact that *certain* Democrats--definitely not all of them, but some--are proposing massive changes in healthcare policy that could radically alter the fate of conservative and especially rural communities (it would probably make life worse for conservative suburban/exurban communities, which, lol, good). In other words I think Nate is basically asking why right-wing populism can't be appealed to with left-wing populism, which is a fair question and has more or less everything to do with a really vague and broad-strokes argument about why conservatives feel justifiably aggrieved.

Yeah, this.

BurtReynolds wrote:For the record I think they can be appealed to with promises of free healthcare, but when the far larger message is "we hate you, your culture and your history, we think you are stupid and ignorant and dangerous, and we think you have life too easy compared to everyone else..." well... good luck with that.

It wouldn't surprise me in the next few years if we see a right wing candidate simply co-opt government funded healthcare for their own platform. In fact, I think that's more likely. You lefties don't seem to notice, but there are real schisms forming on the right about this stuff. The old libertarian-ish, neocon stuff doesn't fly with an increasing number of conservatives.

McParadigm wrote:The thing is, you’re describing this Conservativism of the People culture not by what it has to offer but by how much influence it can achieve. And your point, even then, is “not much.”

McParadigm wrote: If you were to describe this Conservatism of the People, which is not shared by their ruling conservative elites, what specific values and policy dreams would you ascribe to them?

McParadigm wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:For the record I think they can be appealed to with promises of free healthcare, but when the far larger message is "we hate you, your culture and your history, we think you are stupid and ignorant and dangerous, and we think you have life too easy compared to everyone else..." well... good luck with that.

Yeah, the Republican Party really is a victim of one-sided demonization rhetoric.

BurtReynolds wrote:The old libertarian-ish, neocon stuff doesn't fly with an increasing number of conservatives.

Mickey wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:The old libertarian-ish, neocon stuff doesn't fly with an increasing number of conservatives.

Wow, no one on this board who identifies with the left has made numerous posts to this effect, great point.

BurtReynolds wrote:

Mickey wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:The old libertarian-ish, neocon stuff doesn't fly with an increasing number of conservatives.

Wow, no one on this board who identifies with the left has made numerous posts to this effect, great point.

Have they?

Mickey wrote:I still think the question of "what culture is being hated on by the Democrats" is an open question. I don't think "I dislike immigration" is a culture.

BurtReynolds wrote:

McParadigm wrote:The thing is, you’re describing this Conservativism of the People culture not by what it has to offer but by how much influence it can achieve. And your point, even then, is “not much.”

Yeah.

McParadigm wrote: If you were to describe this Conservatism of the People, which is not shared by their ruling conservative elites, what specific values and policy dreams would you ascribe to them?

That's a bit hard to answer with Trump in the White House. He's pulled Republicans kicking and screaming in a populist direction at times, but even then it doesn't amount to much real movement.

I think immigration and tariffs are the biggest ones. On immigration, establishment Republicans are notorious for saying one thing and doing another. I think the same can be said for a lot of social issues and internet censorship as well. Establishment Republicans are more excited about foreign aid and intervention than voters...

BurtReynolds wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

McParadigm wrote:The thing is, you’re describing this Conservativism of the People culture not by what it has to offer but by how much influence it can achieve. And your point, even then, is “not much.”

Yeah.

McParadigm wrote: If you were to describe this Conservatism of the People, which is not shared by their ruling conservative elites, what specific values and policy dreams would you ascribe to them?

That's a bit hard to answer with Trump in the White House. He's pulled Republicans kicking and screaming in a populist direction at times, but even then it doesn't amount to much real movement.

I think immigration and tariffs are the biggest ones. On immigration, establishment Republicans are notorious for saying one thing and doing another. I think the same can be said for a lot of social issues and internet censorship as well. Establishment Republicans are more excited about foreign aid and intervention than voters...

oh god, how could I forget about government spending! Though that's a dead issue at this point. I don't think anyone cares anymore.

Orpheus wrote:I don't think that anyone has adequately answered this in the last four years, but: how are conservative voters more aggrieved than anyone else? No one has any money, everyone is suffering. Income inequality affects us all, lack of infrastructure affects us all. How is this one group supposedly suffering more than anyone else? A lot of immigrants essentially experience taxation without representation, but they're not storming the capitol.

Why are we supposed to feel especially sorry for these people when everyone is struggling?

BurtReynolds wrote:

Orpheus wrote:I don't think that anyone has adequately answered this in the last four years, but: how are conservative voters more aggrieved than anyone else? No one has any money, everyone is suffering. Income inequality affects us all, lack of infrastructure affects us all. How is this one group supposedly suffering more than anyone else? A lot of immigrants essentially experience taxation without representation, but they're not storming the capitol.

Why are we supposed to feel especially sorry for these people when everyone is struggling?

Are you talking to me?

Orpheus wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote:

Orpheus wrote:I don't think that anyone has adequately answered this in the last four years, but: how are conservative voters more aggrieved than anyone else? No one has any money, everyone is suffering. Income inequality affects us all, lack of infrastructure affects us all. How is this one group supposedly suffering more than anyone else? A lot of immigrants essentially experience taxation without representation, but they're not storming the capitol.

Why are we supposed to feel especially sorry for these people when everyone is struggling?

Are you talking to me?

Everyone.