Red Mosquito

B wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote: All I'm saying is that conservative people don't control any of the major institutions of power except the church. And no one on the left or establishment GOP represents their interests.

What interests aren't being addressed? You want your guns protected? No one's tried to touch anyone's guns in two decades.

Do you want job opportunities? Well the economy went to shit, but everyone, everyone, is trying to fix that.

Are you afraid the pandemics going to kill you, or kill your business? Everyone is working on that too.

from watching them on the news, they're only interest seem to be we hate the Democrats and white people need to be in power. That's not really a list of demands. It's just psychotic raving.

If they had an interest other than "I love Trump," they might be surprised at how many people are willing to address it.

"I love Trump" is such a lazy, knee-jerk caricature of 70,000,000 people who didn't vote for Biden.

Broadly speaking, conservatives want these bolded parts addressed in much different ways than liberals. For example, a solution involving economic pandemic recovery, to a conservative, would include less federal or state restrictions on businesses to operate. Because of that catchy "personally responsibility" phrase, the thinking goes that society can govern themselves with regards to spreading a disease by using common sense practices (masks, social distancing, plenty of sanitizer stations) in businesses rather than lockdowns.

This would create more employment, which conservatives would probably argue is a better stimulus than $$ handouts. When it comes to unemployment benefits, I believe conservatives would much rather tie stimulus as a bonus to those who are able to work rather than "paying people to stay at home." I know that sounds cruel, but believe it or not there are conservatives out there who do genuinely want people to have job opportunities and are willing to play by the rules (social distancing in their businesses, etc.) so that they can keep employing people who want jobs.

Where liberals muck it all up is the whole individual mandate thing. Conservatives don't take too kindly to a government asking a citizen to do something that they are weirdly okay with a business asking that same citizen to do. Masks, for example.

/the way I see it.

Mickey wrote:So again, a big part of being a conservative is "immigration control" (seemingly for no direct reason, it's just kind of an abstract ideal), it being a central part of the Bush, Obama, AND Trump presidencies was not sufficient and doesn't at all indicate that their interest is being represented, oh and also we shouldn't hate or despise these people who hold some kind of fanatical, unquenchable desire for immigration control.

Restricting immigration to the degree that conservatives want was not remotely the concern of the Bush and Obama presidencies.

You can feel however you want about them. I'm not asking you to feel a certain way.

Just admit that you are in power! Stop pretending you are the resistance. You don't have to ally with them or appease them. You can send them to gulags if you want!

Enjoy it at least!

Why am I in power Burt? Which of my interests are being represented at the federal level?

Or, more succinctly:

Restricting immigration to the degree that conservatives want was not remotely the concern of the Bush and Obama presidencies.

Fine! But then that means that people on the left who want open borders are slightly more underdogs. Conservatives are getting their interests addressed but not to the degree they'd like. Open borders leftists aren't having their interests addressed at all.

Mickey wrote:Or, more succinctly:

Restricting immigration to the degree that conservatives want was not remotely the concern of the Bush and Obama presidencies.

Fine! But then that means that people on the left who want open borders are slightly more underdogs. Conservatives are getting their interests addressed but not to the degree they'd like. Open borders leftists aren't having their interests addressed at all.

No, open borders leftists aren't having their interests addressed either. Like I said before, my argument also applies to the far left.

So then why did you say that there's no question who's the underdog. Seems like an open question

I mean shit the (apparently unjustified) conservatives at least got orange man. They wouldn't even let the left have social democracy.

I really don’t think immigration illegal or otherwise is going to be a problem for the States for the foreseeable future.

Mickey wrote:So then why did you say that there's no question who's the underdog. Seems like an open question

The far left is probably at least as hopelessly out of power if not more so, so sure, I'll say they are even bigger underdogs. Maybe.

washing machine wrote:This would create more employment, which conservatives would probably argue is a better stimulus than $$ handouts.

One nitpick: nobody argues that handouts are a better stimulus than people having jobs.

McParadigm wrote:

washing machine wrote:This would create more employment, which conservatives would probably argue is a better stimulus than $$ handouts.

One nitpick: nobody argues that handouts are a better stimulus than people having jobs.

Refreshing to hear that said.

washing machine wrote:

B wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote: All I'm saying is that conservative people don't control any of the major institutions of power except the church. And no one on the left or establishment GOP represents their interests.

What interests aren't being addressed? You want your guns protected? No one's tried to touch anyone's guns in two decades.

Do you want job opportunities? Well the economy went to shit, but everyone, everyone, is trying to fix that.

Are you afraid the pandemics going to kill you, or kill your business? Everyone is working on that too.

from watching them on the news, they're only interest seem to be we hate the Democrats and white people need to be in power. That's not really a list of demands. It's just psychotic raving.

If they had an interest other than "I love Trump," they might be surprised at how many people are willing to address it.

"I love Trump" is such a lazy, knee-jerk caricature of 70,000,000 people who didn't vote for Biden.

Broadly speaking, conservatives want these bolded parts addressed in much different ways than liberals. For example, a solution involving economic pandemic recovery, to a conservative, would include less federal or state restrictions on businesses to operate. Because of that catchy "personally responsibility" phrase, the thinking goes that society can govern themselves with regards to spreading a disease by using common sense practices (masks, social distancing, plenty of sanitizer stations) in businesses rather than lockdowns.

This would create more employment, which conservatives would probably argue is a better stimulus than $$ handouts. When it comes to unemployment benefits, I believe conservatives would much rather tie stimulus as a bonus to those who are able to work rather than "paying people to stay at home." I know that sounds cruel, but believe it or not there are conservatives out there who do genuinely want people to have job opportunities and are willing to play by the rules (social distancing in their businesses, etc.) so that they can keep employing people who want jobs.

Where liberals muck it all up is the whole individual mandate thing. Conservatives don't take too kindly to a government asking a citizen to do something that they are weirdly okay with a business asking that same citizen to do. Masks, for example.

/the way I see it.

It's not that most liberals don't agree with a lot of what you're saying. It's really a matter of where on the spectrum do you fall.

Personally, I think everyone should stay the fuck home and do nothing for 2-4 weeks, but I also understand that's unreasonable. Faced with that, my position becomes more "OK, well, let's just limit the things that are the worst, and wear a mask when we're out."

It seems that conservatives who believe that nothing should be closed at all, ever have an equally unreasonably point of view, and when faced with that reality, their position becomes "Fuck you, you didn't do exactly what I want! Your tyranny needs to be overthrown!"

So, yeah ... there's no representation for those interests.

washing machine wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

washing machine wrote:This would create more employment, which conservatives would probably argue is a better stimulus than $$ handouts.

One nitpick: nobody argues that handouts are a better stimulus than people having jobs.

Refreshing to hear that said.

But this wasn't even a plank in the Bernie Sanders campaign so.... where exactly are you getting this idea from?

B wrote:

washing machine wrote:

B wrote:

BurtReynolds wrote: All I'm saying is that conservative people don't control any of the major institutions of power except the church. And no one on the left or establishment GOP represents their interests.

What interests aren't being addressed? You want your guns protected? No one's tried to touch anyone's guns in two decades.

Do you want job opportunities? Well the economy went to shit, but everyone, everyone, is trying to fix that.

Are you afraid the pandemics going to kill you, or kill your business? Everyone is working on that too.

from watching them on the news, they're only interest seem to be we hate the Democrats and white people need to be in power. That's not really a list of demands. It's just psychotic raving.

If they had an interest other than "I love Trump," they might be surprised at how many people are willing to address it.

"I love Trump" is such a lazy, knee-jerk caricature of 70,000,000 people who didn't vote for Biden.

Broadly speaking, conservatives want these bolded parts addressed in much different ways than liberals. For example, a solution involving economic pandemic recovery, to a conservative, would include less federal or state restrictions on businesses to operate. Because of that catchy "personally responsibility" phrase, the thinking goes that society can govern themselves with regards to spreading a disease by using common sense practices (masks, social distancing, plenty of sanitizer stations) in businesses rather than lockdowns.

This would create more employment, which conservatives would probably argue is a better stimulus than $$ handouts. When it comes to unemployment benefits, I believe conservatives would much rather tie stimulus as a bonus to those who are able to work rather than "paying people to stay at home." I know that sounds cruel, but believe it or not there are conservatives out there who do genuinely want people to have job opportunities and are willing to play by the rules (social distancing in their businesses, etc.) so that they can keep employing people who want jobs.

Where liberals muck it all up is the whole individual mandate thing. Conservatives don't take too kindly to a government asking a citizen to do something that they are weirdly okay with a business asking that same citizen to do. Masks, for example.

/the way I see it.

It's not that most liberals don't agree with a lot of what you're saying. It's really a matter of where on the spectrum do you fall.

Personally, I think everyone should stay the fuck home and do nothing for 2-4 weeks, but I also understand that's unreasonable. Faced with that, my position becomes more "OK, well, let's just limit the things that are the worst, and wear a mask when we're out."

It seems that conservatives who believe that nothing should be closed at all, ever have an equally unreasonably point of view, and when faced with that reality, their position becomes "Fuck you, you didn't do exactly what I want! Your tyranny needs to be overthrown!"

So, yeah ... there's no representation for those interests.

I do agree that both extremes are...extreme.

Common ground for us, probably, is how ridiculous it is that a certain sect of society doesn't want to close anything, doesn't want to wear masks, doesn't want to get tested, and won't get the vaccine.

I've never actually had a full-on conversation with someone like that, but by all accounts they are out there.

Like, what's a solution look like for that kind of person?

Mickey wrote:

washing machine wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

washing machine wrote:This would create more employment, which conservatives would probably argue is a better stimulus than $$ handouts.

One nitpick: nobody argues that handouts are a better stimulus than people having jobs.

Refreshing to hear that said.

But this wasn't even a plank in the Bernie Sanders campaign so.... where exactly are you getting this idea from?

I'm basing this on the near stalemate of stimulus negotiations. It's my understanding that a big sticking point with the R's was payments for individuals. When the bill came out, the biggest criticism I saw was that $600 was not enough, and that too much of the package was going to business.

Hmm, wonder if there's a reason to argue for more substantial direct payments right now.. Some kind of reason why telling people to go look for jobs isn't a good idea

In other words, a response to a pandemic that doesn't involve shutdown orders (which would require significantly greater displays of personal responsibility on the part of the American populace) would still have to grapple with the fact that the kind of limited in-person interaction necessary to slow the spread will induce a reduction of job growth in the service industries, and a number of other sectors as well. Calling for greater direct payments in this context isn't evidence of a philosophical belief in government assistance INSTEAD of employment overall.

I think its a little cruel to phrase it as "asking for handouts" when entire industries were wiped out overnight. People want to survive, yeah. The fact that the GOP playbook has stayed the same when many people's choice is basically work and risk spreading disease or get thrown out on the street is absolutely absurd.

Mickey wrote:Hmm, wonder if there's a reason to argue for more substantial direct payments right now.. Some kind of reason why telling people to go look for jobs isn't a good idea

Direct payments don't mean people don't still need jobs but you basically never left college so....