Red Mosquito

Orpheus wrote: almost all of humanity is innately curious and drawn to things like learning, making tools, and finding purpose outside one's self,

Bi_3 wrote:

B wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:That's probably because nearly all human progress over the last 1000 years has been driven by those ideas.

That's probably because white people have been killing and enslaving anyone with different ideas over the last 1000 years.

those ideas are not unique to white people, buddy

Yeah, it just a fun thing to post.

Orpheus wrote:Umm, yeah, exactly. That's my point.

It was mine as well: the values seem familiar because they've risen to the top in the marketplace of ideas by proven advances in human rights, democracy, technology, health, etc. It was also Burt's in his original quip about "sjw vs white supremacist" because the majority of what's on that list are ideas that have been adopted as universal across humanity. I don't get why that's confusing.

And before you say I'm misrepresenting your argument, note that you didn't pull specific things from the list. From what you said i have to believe you mean the particular cocktail of ingredients is what drove progress, which is what I objected to. If you want to amend that go ahead, but it totally changes what I was reacting to.

Bi_3 wrote:

Orpheus wrote:Umm, yeah, exactly. That's my point.

It was mine as well: the values seem familiar because they've risen to the top in the marketplace of ideas by proven advances in human rights, democracy, technology, health, etc. It was also Burt's in his original quip about "sjw vs white supremacist" because the majority of what's on that list are ideas that have been adopted as universal across humanity. I don't get why that's confusing.

Except they haven't been? "Christian" and "rugged individualism" negates literally billions of people. Almost the whole of Asia is neither Christian nor made of individualistic cultures. You may have noticed this while they work together to beat the virus and a bunch of our citizens contend that God doesn't need them to wear a mask and its "up to the individual." Give me a fucking break.

Orpheus wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

Orpheus wrote:Umm, yeah, exactly. That's my point.

It was mine as well: the values seem familiar because they've risen to the top in the marketplace of ideas by proven advances in human rights, democracy, technology, health, etc. It was also Burt's in his original quip about "sjw vs white supremacist" because the majority of what's on that list are ideas that have been adopted as universal across humanity. I don't get why that's confusing.

Except they haven't been? "Christian" and "rugged individualism" negates literally billions of people. Almost the whole of Asia is neither Christian nor made of individualistic cultures. You may have noticed this while they work together to beat the virus and a bunch of our citizens contend that God doesn't need them to wear a mask and its "up to the individual." Give me a fucking break.

Well, there are obviously things on that list put there to slander and diminish the concept of "whiteness", whatever that actually is. But how does saying 'rugged individualism is good' negate anyone? I dont think that is a wise thing to say as the value of culture is not a binary choice where one is good and one is bad. You also may want to educate yourself on the distribution and influence of Christianity on the daily lives of people (for example, ~ 25% of Asian nations are Christian majority):

Except, going back to your original comment, you said 1000 years. That is a very recent phenomenon in Asia and Africa, and happened alongside a lot of colonialism and misery. Ever read Things Fall Apart? Ever wonder if people in the Congo would rather not have Christianity so their ancestors didn't have their hands chopped off en masse?

A more recent example: white planters in the south combined authority and wealth(big points on the list) to make people grow cotton, which ruined the soil. People like GWC and planters using smarter techniques then had to plant new things to re-enrich it. Notice "care for one's environment" is nowhere on the white list, when it is pretty high on any sort of "native people" list, bevause it has to be. I wonder if that's fucking us now?

Empathy is not on the list either. Gee, I wonder if THAT'S fucking us now???

The things you read as trying to cast a negative light are there because they go hand in hand with things like a focus on economics and authority. One cannot exist without the other in this set of beliefs.

Like i said, if you want to amend your statement, that's fine. But you made a giant, sweeping statement that was super duper incorrect. But thanks for the graphs? There is a ton more wrong with it that I could get into if you wanted, specifically how most developed countries have also rejected the idea of "you get what you deserve," morally and politically.

Also the irony of you saying "you need to educate yourself" and then implying that those nations just magically became Christian is so thick and rich that fucking Beyonce is jealous.

better call becky with the good hair

The title of the original graphic was "Aspects and Assumptions of Whiteness & White Culture in the United States", but most (though not all) of the things listed have been the primary drivers for human progress over the last millennium or so and thus cannot be exclusively the provenance of white Americans. The graphic itself presents a negative bias posting things like "the wife must be subordinate" and "steak and potatoes", which are leave-it-to-beaver cliches from 50+ years ago that the majority does not hold thrown in there because... oops! we made whiteness look pretty good. Key on those all you want, that's why they were mixed in so you don't need to challenge you assumptions about the evils of whitey (or maybe even... heaven forbid... the primacy of group identity as a whole!). The graphics I posted where in response to the quoted post about "Christianity" and "rugged individualism" negating billions of people because "almost the whole of Asia is neither Christian nor individualistic..." which you provided zero evidence for and the information I found in 5 second google search contradicts. Bring in valid criticisms of European Colonialism it's lasting effects all you want, but that doesn't invalidate anything I've said or that countries that adopt enlightenment values and democratic capitalism are happier, healthier, and safer than those that don't and the history shows that.

You provided a graph with exactly three Asian countries highlighted, which sure, two of which are majority Christian. The rest are "no data." So your five second Google search actually didn't yield much.

The prevalence of masks in Asia even before this pandemic suggests a level a community care and respect for community well being that simply doesn't exist in America, and this has been written about at length by multiple people. Contrasting images of Americans literally physically fighting to get into places and people in places like Korea politely wearing masks and quarantining themselves to help the effort are easy to find and extremely revelatory.

It is telling that you try to discredit the list with steak and potatoes when the ideas of individualism and authority are much more potent and relevant today. You can directly trace our biggest issues to many of these issues.

"You get what you deserve"-- no effective safety net, no universal health care. People in poverty are almost universally treated as though it is their fault or the result of moral failings. The democracies of western Europe have almost universally rejected this idea.

"Wealth is most important"--this has led to global warming, corruption in politics, and an inequal justice system.

"Authority is to be respected"--authority is used to kill and silence minority groups, people in authority operate under a different set of rules than the rest of us (qualified immunity)

"Majority rules (if the majority is white)"--people of color constantly have their experiences invalidated. Murders that are being prosecuted now likely wouldn't have in the past because there would be no evidence (Ahmaud Arbery)

"Rugged individualism"--I don't need to wear a mask, its my choice. Kids getting shot in schools has nothing to with my easy access to guns, it's my choice. Tax cuts are more important to me than the integrity of the office of president and the structure of my democracy--it's my choice.

Many of these ideas have led to us looking into the barrels of all the loaded guns we face now.

I'm obviously not going to change your mind on this and I don't have much more to say on it, but hopefully it gives some of the more moderate board members something to think about.

One must imagine Orpheus happy.

Mickey wrote:One must imagine Orpheus happy.

Living in an alternate reality does that

Bi_3 wrote:

Mickey wrote:One must imagine Orpheus happy.

Living in an alternate reality does that

durdencommatyler wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

Mickey wrote:One must imagine Orpheus happy.

Living in an alternate reality does that

Last message deleted. This was a spiteful and meaningless discussion that did nothing but emit negativity. Apologies for my part in it. Taking a few days off.

I apologize if I was rude, I don't bear you any ill will. Just a lot of stuff that's been on my mind coming out.

And great post Mickey, you got a chuckle out of me.

.

Bi_3 wrote:A bit self serving, but pretty on point:

https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice ... en-debate/

Turns out the best thing about this cancel culture letter is that they kept Glenn Greenwald off the letter, because they didn’t like his views.

McParadigm wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:A bit self serving, but pretty on point:

https://harpers.org/a-letter-on-justice ... en-debate/

Turns out the best thing about this cancel culture letter is that they kept Glenn Greenwald off the letter, because they didn’t like his views.

He's personally so polarizing for me. Sometimes I'm nodding my head the whole time I'm reading his article and other times I'm so confused by his conclusions. I won't stop reading him, I'm just saying he surprises me fairly often.