Red Mosquito

I agree that Rian´s choices on pretty much every setup JJ gave us were really weird. It felt he really trying hard to fuck those up...specially with Snoke and Rey and Luke´s meeting.

tree_ wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:Has anybody had a good counterargument to the stupidity of the whole Holdo/Poe conflict? She says "Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it, you'll never make it through the night"... so she's basically saying, "Poe, you need to listen to me and follow orders even if it looks like I'm completely incompetent and letting everyone die." What kind of lesson is this? Blindly follow authority?

Poe should've taken over as Admiral and started kicking ass at this point. More wasted potential for good storytelling.

There have been many, many good counterarguments to this yes. But you won't like/accept any of them, so I won't bother reposting them again. I really liked Holdo/Poe's dynamic in the film and think it's really strong.

Please just give me the reason you think is the most valid.

Poe defies direct orders from his General and commanding officer (Leia). That action results in the unnecessary deaths of dozens of troops. Take that out of Star Wars and imagine what the consequences of such an act would be in real life. What if Ruddo had disobeyed his commanding General in combat and took unnecessary action/risks that directly caused the deaths of dozens of his fellow soldiers?

Leia was right to demote him but she absolutely should have put him in the brig. She should have taken Poe off the chess board entirely. She didn't do that. That is her mistake. I think it makes sense that she didn't given how much she wants to trust Poe, wants him to be the leader of The Resistance once she's gone. She's grooming him. That, and their resources are depleted to a devastating degree.

Leia does't put Poe in the Brigg and all others senior staff are killed in the next attack, leaving Holdo in charge. She and Leia have a long relationship and infinite trust in each other (this is not explicitly stated in the film, though I personally think it's heavily implied, and it is 100% fleshed out in one of the canon novels).

Like Stip said, in any military or hierarchical structure, there is a chain of command and orders to be followed. You may not like that or agree with it but that's the way these things are designed. Holdo is under no obligation to explain her plan to an inferior, who has just been demoted, and who is known to go rogue, do his own thing, and risk others' lives. Again, think of it as a real-life scenario. None of these seems absurd or out of the ordinary in real life situations, to me. I've never served, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn. But it all seems above board to me.

Holdo is trying to reprimand Poe and teach him a valuable lesson about trust and following orders. He's cocky. He thinks he has a right to know everything and he just doesn't. Poe is insubordinate. The lesson isn't necessarily "blindly follow orders" it's that you can't do this alone and you are accountable to others just as they are accountable to you and sometimes trust and strategy are more important assets than blasters and bombs and explosions.

Could Holdo have just said, "Poe, trust me, okay. I know Leia, and she trusts me. We have a plan and it's a good plan but it requires patients and precision. Please do your part and I promise we'll be fine"? Yes, she could have said that. But it's far more stupid and less believable to me that she would do that. In real life that wouldn't happen. She's his boss, his superior, his commanding officer and he's in a shit ton of trouble for the stunt he's pulled. It's bizarre to me that people think this is some sort of odd plot hole or "stupid conflict."

So much of this movie -- one of the major themes of the film -- is hubris. People believing their way is better. Or believing they are stronger or smarter or bigger and badder. That's where communication breaks down and people die. That's where bad things happen. We see examples of the damage of hubris in all the story lines throughout the film (with Luke, with Hux/The First Order, and here with Holdo/Poe).

It's thematically powerful and consistent and well constructed. It's one of the things that makes this movie sing for me. To me, it's far from stupid.

stip wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:Why did Yoda suddenly show up here? Why didn't he show up and help Luke before, during his downward spiral over 30 years? Apparently all Yoda needed was a sentence or two to make him give a shit again.

We don't know when exactly Yoda last appeared to Luke before he appears in TLJ. Keep in mind that Luke cut himself off from the Force. So there is a large swath of time where Yoda didn't appear because Luke was cut off.

However, before that, we don't know exactly how long it's been. Yoda may have appeared and tried to help him immediately after his academy was destroyed. We haven't been given all of that info yet, so we just don't know.

Alternatley, Yoda appeared at exactly the right moment - when Luke was at his lowest and finally ready to listen

Yessir

VinylGuy wrote:I agree that Rian´s choices on pretty much every setup JJ gave us were really weird. It felt he really trying hard to fuck those up...specially with Snoke and Rey and Luke´s meeting.

The only choice I didn't like is how Han's death was pretty much glossed over in the movie cut. The others I loved or appreciated.

E.H. Ruddock wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

E.H. Ruddock wrote:I really wish we would have gotten more of a Snoke backstory. So far he's just some guy that became super fucking powerful with the force and liked the dark side, then BOOM he's dead. Maybe we'll get something in IX, but I doubt it.

I'm sure we'll get more in supplemental material (novels, comics, etc). I expect we'll get more hints in IX but probably nothing super substantial.

Snoke is just like the Emperor. We know nothing about the guy in the OT. We might honestly know more about Snoke right now than we did about the Emperor at the end of Return of the Jedi. It's a testament to how interesting the character (Snoke) is and to his Andy's performance that so many people feel let down to not know more about him. It's pretty amazing, really.

Cool, I guess that makes sense. Copying the OT!

Then Rian cut the fucker in half in the middle of the movie and ended the comparison.

tree_ wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:I'm still having trouble with ghost force lightning. Did anybody have a good reason for this yet? Why is this the first time we're seeing it in the SW universe?

The reason is that there are always new powers/strategies being explored. It's the first time we see it because it's the first time we see it. Maybe it's the first time it's ever happened. Why does that bother you? Wouldn't the first time we see it bother you no matter what? If Yoda had done it in Return of the Jedi, would you have been bothered and wondered why we'd never seen it before? There is a first time for everything. And I like that we keep expanding the mythology in such ways, personally.

That's fine... I guess... it just seems like it would've happened in one of the previous movies. If something new is introduced after all this time, it deserves some kind of explanation, I think. Like, Luke saying, "Yoda?! HOW'D YOU DO THAT?!" And Yoda saying something like "I've been quietly growing my powers all this time and now I'm ready to help" or some other attempt at an explanation... If it happened in ROTJ, that's fine.. we're still learning about everything at that point...

Exactly, we're still learning about everything at THAT point. And we're still learning at THIS point.

It seems like you really want things spelled out more explicitly. But your mind arrived a really good answer ("I've been quietly growing my powers all this time and now I'm ready to help") without it being explicitly stated. Your answer is a good answer and it fits without contradicting anything on screen.

I can accept this... I guess I need to have more awe/wonder/acceptance of what's happening in order to enjoy it... just feels like if it were written better I wouldn't have to try so hard

Could be. And if that's true for you, then that's a fair criticism. But I also wonder if maybe you just shouldn't try so hard. Maybe that's where you're getting hung up. *shrugs*

Or it just didn't' work for you and that's okay too.

tree_ wrote:In TFA, Snoke learns of the existence of Rey from Kylo and orders Kylo to take her to him. Why? It was implied there would be some sort of meaningful confrontation or temptation. This set-up was shallowly answered in TLJ. "Hi. Tell me where Luke is then I'm going to kill you" is all we get. Then he dies. It could've gone in very interesting, creative directions but instead it just stops. Subversion of expectations does not equal quality. Nobody expected it because it's lame.

I don't think Rian was trying to merely subvert expectations with this. To me, it's the logical way his story unfurled. Once Snoke has Rey, once she's in the room, he knows he has no chance of turning her. He senses it within her. So, he adjusts.

Or it's another example of the hubris that runs through the entire saga. Snoke believed one thing and it was his utter believe, his hubris, that lead him to be blinded.

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:The timing of that 'iron that looks like a transport' joke is really bizarre... considering it takes place directly after the scene in which a mutiny takes place to save the lives of the resistance. Jarring tonal shift. Seems like something outta Space Balls.

Valid point. I agree. It's an odd moment.

It’s a nod to hardware wars. A Star Wars spoof parody film that Lucas himself was a huge fan of.
It’s on YouTube if you’re the kinda person that likes YouTube.

Monkey_Driven wrote:

VinylGuy wrote:I agree that Rian´s choices on pretty much every setup JJ gave us were really weird. It felt he really trying hard to fuck those up...specially with Snoke and Rey and Luke´s meeting.

The only choice I didn't like is how Han's death was pretty much glossed over in the movie cut. The others I loved or appreciated.

Not taking time for Han is weird, yeah. I do understand it, though, from both a story-telling and timeline standpoint. Rian could have made different choices that allowed for it, sure. But by picking up right after TFA like that, it became really difficult.

I didn't think we needed that Luke deleted scene in the film. The emotion Luke shows there is redundant in the context of the film because of his "Where's Han" moment and his time on the Falcon. I would have liked to have a moment where Leia acknowledged or mourned Han, though. But again, she's the kind of character that understands there's a time and a place and the living take precedence.

dimejinky99 wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:The timing of that 'iron that looks like a transport' joke is really bizarre... considering it takes place directly after the scene in which a mutiny takes place to save the lives of the resistance. Jarring tonal shift. Seems like something outta Space Balls.

Valid point. I agree. It's an odd moment.

It’s a nod to hardware wars. A Star Wars spoof parody film that Lucas himself was a huge fan of.
It’s on YouTube if you’re the kinda person that likes YouTube.

Oh yeah, I got the reference/joke. But I still thought it was goofy.

VinylGuy wrote:Man all this talk about the movie got me super exited about seeing it again.

THIS WEEKEND FUCKERSSSSS its TFA and TLJ back to back!

I love you. I really do. I’m gonna do this tonight.

tree_ wrote:In TFA, Snoke learns of the existence of Rey from Kylo and orders Kylo to take her to him. Why? It was implied there would be some sort of meaningful confrontation or temptation. This set-up was shallowly answered in TLJ. "Hi. Tell me where Luke is then I'm going to kill you" is all we get. Then he dies. It could've gone in very interesting, creative directions but instead it just stops. Subversion of expectations does not equal quality. Nobody expected it because it's lame.

Snoke doesn’t learn of the existence of Rey from kylo.

Snoke says to kylo before he’s even met Rey ‘there’s been an awakening. Have you felt it?’

He goes back to that in TLJ and addresses the fact that the light side of the force has risen in her to counteract the darkness in kylo.

Once again.

Have you even seen these movies?

Turn off your YouTube cliff notes and please make up your own arguments.

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:

durdencommatyler wrote:

tree_ wrote:Has anybody had a good counterargument to the stupidity of the whole Holdo/Poe conflict? She says "Hope is like the sun. If you only believe in it when you can see it, you'll never make it through the night"... so she's basically saying, "Poe, you need to listen to me and follow orders even if it looks like I'm completely incompetent and letting everyone die." What kind of lesson is this? Blindly follow authority?

Poe should've taken over as Admiral and started kicking ass at this point. More wasted potential for good storytelling.

There have been many, many good counterarguments to this yes. But you won't like/accept any of them, so I won't bother reposting them again. I really liked Holdo/Poe's dynamic in the film and think it's really strong.

Please just give me the reason you think is the most valid.

Poe defies direct orders from his General and commanding officer (Leia). That action results in the unnecessary deaths of dozens of troops. Take that out of Star Wars and imagine what the consequences of such an act would be in real life. What if Ruddo had disobeyed his commanding General in combat and took unnecessary action/risks that directly caused the deaths of dozens of his fellow soldiers?

Leia was right to demote him but she absolutely should have put him in the brig. She should have taken Poe off the chess board entirely. She didn't do that. That is her mistake. I think it makes sense that she didn't given how much she wants to trust Poe, wants him to be the leader of The Resistance once she's gone. She's grooming him. That, and their resources are depleted to a devastating degree.

Leia does't put Poe in the Brigg and all others senior staff are killed in the next attack, leaving Holdo in charge. She and Leia have a long relationship and infinite trust in each other (this is not explicitly stated in the film, though I personally think it's heavily implied, and it is 100% fleshed out in one of the canon novels).

Like Stip said, in any military or hierarchical structure, there is a chain of command and orders to be followed. You may not like that or agree with it but that's the way these things are designed. Holdo is under no obligation to explain her plan to an inferior, who has just been demoted, and who is known to go rogue, do his own thing, and risk others' lives. Again, think of it as a real-life scenario. None of these seems absurd or out of the ordinary in real life situations, to me. I've never served, so maybe I'm speaking out of turn. But it all seems above board to me.

Holdo is trying to reprimand Poe and teach him a valuable lesson about trust and following orders. He's cocky. He thinks he has a right to know everything and he just doesn't. Poe is insubordinate. The lesson isn't necessarily "blindly follow orders" it's that you can't do this alone and you are accountable to others just as they are accountable to you and sometimes trust and strategy are more important assets than blasters and bombs and explosions.

Could Holdo have just said, "Poe, trust me, okay. I know Leia, and she trusts me. We have a plan and it's a good plan but it requires patients and precision. Please do your part and I promise we'll be fine"? Yes, she could have said that. But it's far more stupid and less believable to me that she would do that. In real life that wouldn't happen. She's his boss, his superior, his commanding officer and he's in a shit ton of trouble for the stunt he's pulled. It's bizarre to me that people think this is some sort of odd plot hole or "stupid conflict."

So much of this movie -- one of the major themes of the film -- is hubris. People believing their way is better. Or believing they are stronger or smarter or bigger and badder. That's where communication breaks down and people die. That's where bad things happen. We see examples of the damage of hubris in all the story lines throughout the film (with Luke, with Hux/The First Order, and here with Holdo/Poe).

It's thematically powerful and consistent and well constructed. It's one of the things that makes this movie sing for me. To me, it's far from stupid.

The moment Poe is given the plan he says it might actually work in a very positive manner. He believed in the plan the moment somebody told him. Throughout the film he is simply asking for hope ... Holdo didn't understand her crew and cost the resistance many lives over a petty judgement of character. It's awful writing.
Holdo is quoted as saying she likes Poe.. a lot.. even after he mutinied and on top of that the crew was noticeably stressed and shaken in their confidence in her. Poe was very clear and loudly calling her a coward and a traitor in front of the entire bridge and providing a plan that he's come up with instead of giving up and she still didn't tell him the superior plan. A commanding officer is welcome to control the need to know basis and to allow your entire crew to distrust to the point of mutiny does not mean you're doing your job well. Is she allowed to keep information to herself? Absolutely. But that's not what's being discussed. We're trying to figure out why she would keep it to herself. Holdo not telling Poe because he was demoted is a terrible excuse. Who cares if he was demoted. Nobody was promoted in the meantime and he's still the most talented pilot they have. The resistance is so scared it's ridiculous to promote or demote at this time .. the entire hierarchy has people jumping from post to post anyway. This is not like a fully functioning military bent on protecting a country of millions.. this is about 400 people in one ship and most of them can't even pilot an X-Wing. The only remaining excuse is that Holdo is unintelligent or incompetent or a combo of both and that is an admission of a horrendously bad piece of writing. It's like inventing a mentally deficient person in your story to do something horribly bad to set the entire plot in motion. It works for comedies with purposely dim plots but that sort of writing tool should be expunged from stories of this caliber.

I told you that you wouldn't like/accept any answer, tree.

Because they're bad answers. Holdo still looks like a terrible leader.

Okay. Agree to disagree.

Remember guys, this movie is objectively bad.

The writers wrote a stupid character for no good reason. Bad writing, bad story line, bad movie.

Monkey_Driven wrote:Remember guys, this movie is objectively bad.

I corrected that with the help of Jorge. There are objectively bad things about this movie, which doesn't necessarily make the movie objectively bad as a whole.

tree_ wrote:Because they're bad answers. Holdo still looks like a terrible leader.

So you’re body shaming her? Cos of the hair?

Thank the maker she’s not fat