Page 57 of 165

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:45 am
by stip
LoathedVermin72 wrote:I'm gonna be honest, stip: you totally lost me when you brought up an RT score as some kind of relevant barometer of quality. And Joss Whedon is absolutely a hack. Firefly and Serenity are good, but for completely uncinematic reasons. Visually, he is a TV hired gun through and through. The Avengers movies are some of the drabbest, flattest, dullest things I've ever seen.
Silly me for thinking that the aggregated opinion of movie critics might somehow provide some relevant context for the dueling personal opinions of people on a message board who are trying to assess the perceived comparative talent of different directors

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:46 am
by stip
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
turned2black wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
turned2black wrote:
stip wrote:I don't know that distinctive and visionary are the same thing.

The matrix and LOTR were visionary in that they changed people's expectations for what movies should look like or what they could accomplish. The MCU was/is visionary for the same reason. Can you say that about Snyder?
His action sequences are generally what he gets credit for in terms of a "unique style". Also, probably his use of desaturated colors.
I don't find his action sequences all that engaging. And find the vast majority of his editing technics in those action sequences to be distracting and rather pointless.
Also, the movie surrounding his action sequences are generally pretty terrible.
I consider Snyder a visionary not simply because his action sequences and style are unique, but because - crucially - those elements are expressive. They are connected to a deeper exploration of themes and ideas. Style and action kinetics are never fulfilling if they stop short of becoming expressive (this was why Fury Road left me cold). I think Snyder's over-the-top surface tends to make people write him off as an airhead (same way people write off Michael Bay), but I find a wealth of depth, intelligence, insight, and beauty in his work. History as mythology in 300. Historical heritage and its relation to coming-of-age in Legend of the Guardians. Empowerment through appropriation of tools of oppression in Sucker Punch. The American experience in the wake of 9/11 in Man of Steel. His exploration of all of these things, to me, feels cohesive, dynamic, original, and utterly his own.
None of those themes are explored in any depth in his movies. How could someone glean any sense of depth out of his movies when they are so surface-level and vacant? Everything he touches is reduced to some kind of teenage masculine fantasy that doesn't lend itself to deeper analysis. You need the characters, dialogue and plot to pull off insight into those themes. None of his movies (I haven't seen the Owl movie) have any of those things and he seems more than happy to sacrifice character development for poorly constructed action sequences.
Disagree with everything you just said. Like I said, I think there is a lot of depth and insight in the exploration. YOU'RE writing them off because of the surface - that's you, not the movie. There's no such thing as a work of art that doesn't lend itself to analysis. You're demonstrating what I said. Also, plot, characters, and dialogue are by no means essential to achieving depth. That's just the most common way movies do it - there are others. And I'd argue the others are often more cinematic, challenging, and complex. The medium offers huge amounts of possibilities. If what you're saying were true, than all experimental or avant-garde cinema would be meaningless.

It would be interesting to see you provide a detailed defense/walk through of what you see rather than simply assert its existence. This is not a hostile post. I'd like to read it

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:47 am
by LoathedVermin72
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:I'm gonna be honest, stip: you totally lost me when you brought up an RT score as some kind of relevant barometer of quality. And Joss Whedon is absolutely a hack. Firefly and Serenity are good, but for completely uncinematic reasons. Visually, he is a TV hired gun through and through. The Avengers movies are some of the drabbest, flattest, dullest things I've ever seen.
Silly me for thinking that the aggregated opinion of movie critics might somehow provide some relevant context for the dueling personal opinions of people on a message board who are trying to assess the perceived comparative talent of different directors
Professional critics are the most jaded, unengaged, self-righteous, close-minded judges of quality on the planet. Modern film culture is a fucking joke.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:47 am
by stip
I'll even go first. Excuse me for a few

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:49 am
by LoathedVermin72
stip wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
turned2black wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
turned2black wrote:
stip wrote:I don't know that distinctive and visionary are the same thing.

The matrix and LOTR were visionary in that they changed people's expectations for what movies should look like or what they could accomplish. The MCU was/is visionary for the same reason. Can you say that about Snyder?
His action sequences are generally what he gets credit for in terms of a "unique style". Also, probably his use of desaturated colors.
I don't find his action sequences all that engaging. And find the vast majority of his editing technics in those action sequences to be distracting and rather pointless.
Also, the movie surrounding his action sequences are generally pretty terrible.
I consider Snyder a visionary not simply because his action sequences and style are unique, but because - crucially - those elements are expressive. They are connected to a deeper exploration of themes and ideas. Style and action kinetics are never fulfilling if they stop short of becoming expressive (this was why Fury Road left me cold). I think Snyder's over-the-top surface tends to make people write him off as an airhead (same way people write off Michael Bay), but I find a wealth of depth, intelligence, insight, and beauty in his work. History as mythology in 300. Historical heritage and its relation to coming-of-age in Legend of the Guardians. Empowerment through appropriation of tools of oppression in Sucker Punch. The American experience in the wake of 9/11 in Man of Steel. His exploration of all of these things, to me, feels cohesive, dynamic, original, and utterly his own.
None of those themes are explored in any depth in his movies. How could someone glean any sense of depth out of his movies when they are so surface-level and vacant? Everything he touches is reduced to some kind of teenage masculine fantasy that doesn't lend itself to deeper analysis. You need the characters, dialogue and plot to pull off insight into those themes. None of his movies (I haven't seen the Owl movie) have any of those things and he seems more than happy to sacrifice character development for poorly constructed action sequences.
Disagree with everything you just said. Like I said, I think there is a lot of depth and insight in the exploration. YOU'RE writing them off because of the surface - that's you, not the movie. There's no such thing as a work of art that doesn't lend itself to analysis. You're demonstrating what I said. Also, plot, characters, and dialogue are by no means essential to achieving depth. That's just the most common way movies do it - there are others. And I'd argue the others are often more cinematic, challenging, and complex. The medium offers huge amounts of possibilities. If what you're saying were true, than all experimental or avant-garde cinema would be meaningless.

It would be interesting to see you provide a detailed defense/walk through of what you see rather than simply assert its existence. This is not a hostile post. I'd like to read it
Fair enough. I'll try to get to this when I have some more time.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:56 am
by Kaius
You obviously have plenty of time.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:57 am
by LoathedVermin72
I'm on my phone, Kaius

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:57 am
by stip
McParadigm wrote: Michael bay redefined what an action blockbuster was. And the prequel's redefined the industry's approach to special effects. I'd place a lot of superhero movies in with that lot.

All that this "universe" stuff is really accomplishing is further expanding (along with some other products) studio expectations as to how long they can keep a franchise solvent...a journey that started a long time ago but is now creating a problematic chokepoint for new or original ideas.
there is no doubt a financial benefit to all this, and this sort of long term story telling architecture has the ability to make someone a shit ton of money if done well. That's why, from a studio backing perspective, there's interest in this model. But that's always been the case. Studios are there to make money and so they'll champion whatever makes them money. But doesn't change anything about the point I made earlier about the MCU being a transformative type of storytelling.

And both Michael Bay and George Lucas are visionary filmmakers, in that their style of movie making transformed the industry. That says nothing about the quality of any particular film by them. It's just a fact.
McParadigm wrote:Oh, and mostly just being very boring movies. And I think the idea that something can be mindless, but not stupid (as if those are separate qualities) is a "feels true," nothing more.

Someday, if you work really hard at it, you may just come to realize that something's worth, value, quality, or appeal does not have to be directly correlated with your personal enjoyment of it.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 12:58 am
by stip
okay, back to my LV project.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 1:10 am
by Kaius
LoathedVermin72 wrote:I'm on my phone, Kaius
Thank you for coming clean clean.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 1:22 am
by nyquillyn
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
turned2black wrote:
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
turned2black wrote:
stip wrote:I don't know that distinctive and visionary are the same thing.

The matrix and LOTR were visionary in that they changed people's expectations for what movies should look like or what they could accomplish. The MCU was/is visionary for the same reason. Can you say that about Snyder?
His action sequences are generally what he gets credit for in terms of a "unique style". Also, probably his use of desaturated colors.
I don't find his action sequences all that engaging. And find the vast majority of his editing technics in those action sequences to be distracting and rather pointless.
Also, the movie surrounding his action sequences are generally pretty terrible.
I consider Snyder a visionary not simply because his action sequences and style are unique, but because - crucially - those elements are expressive. They are connected to a deeper exploration of themes and ideas. Style and action kinetics are never fulfilling if they stop short of becoming expressive (this was why Fury Road left me cold). I think Snyder's over-the-top surface tends to make people write him off as an airhead (same way people write off Michael Bay), but I find a wealth of depth, intelligence, insight, and beauty in his work. History as mythology in 300. Historical heritage and its relation to coming-of-age in Legend of the Guardians. Empowerment through appropriation of tools of oppression in Sucker Punch. The American experience in the wake of 9/11 in Man of Steel. His exploration of all of these things, to me, feels cohesive, dynamic, original, and utterly his own.
None of those themes are explored in any depth in his movies. How could someone glean any sense of depth out of his movies when they are so surface-level and vacant? Everything he touches is reduced to some kind of teenage masculine fantasy that doesn't lend itself to deeper analysis. You need the characters, dialogue and plot to pull off insight into those themes. None of his movies (I haven't seen the Owl movie) have any of those things and he seems more than happy to sacrifice character development for poorly constructed action sequences.
Disagree with everything you just said. Like I said, I think there is a lot of depth and insight in the exploration. YOU'RE writing them off because of the surface - that's you, not the movie. There's no such thing as a work of art that doesn't lend itself to analysis. You're demonstrating what I said. Also, plot, characters, and dialogue are by no means essential to achieving depth. That's just the most common way movies do it - there are others. And I'd argue the others are often more cinematic, challenging, and complex. The medium offers huge amounts of possibilities. If what you're saying were true, than all experimental or avant-garde cinema would be meaningless.
Sure. But I don't find anything challenging or complex in Snyder's work and at some point, something has to engage me to want to explore it deeper. For me, those things generally come to the surface rather quickly. And none of those themes you mentioned jumped out at me when I watched the movies or mulled them over later. Finding deeper meaning in a certain piece of art isn't a universal truth just because YOU find it.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 1:36 am
by stip
Okay, I’ll go a little deep into the Christopher Nolan movies—some of themes that the film manages to explore in fairly intelligent ways. The films struggle with a declining faith in democratic institutions (which is one of the reasons why they haven’t come close to feeling dated yet—that decline has only gotten worse since Nolan made his films)—the desire to see democracy (in the deepest sense of people being able to govern themselves) preserved or, more accurately, reborn in a city state that’s lost it. What would it take for that to happen? What roles do elites play in that process? Do they do more harm then good? How can you find ways to make their power subordinate to democratic controls? Therefore it’s also a series of films about what is involved in the refounding of a city. How does one create a fresh start for an individual, or a people, in a closed world governed by corrupt institutions? Catwoman, Thomas Wayne, Bruce Wayne, Gordon,Dent, the League of Shadows—they each struggle with this in different ways throughout the trilogy.

The general appeal of superhero movies is that they make all the worlds problems solvable by just finding good, powerful people and having them beat up the bad, powerful people that make everyone else’s life miserable. There’s something profoundly anti-democratic about this approach, but immensely appealing precisely because it makes complicated and potentially intractable problems comprehensible and resolvable. Nolan actually grapples with the tension between elites and average citizens. Does Batman empower the citizens of Gotham, or does he preserve a kind of learned helplessness in them. Can Gotham be free as long as Batman is in it?

So basically the movies are exploring the question of what citizens need to rule themselves (and in important ways Gotham is the main character of these films). So what do they need?

-Resources, to not be governed by necessity
-Stability, so as not to be governed by insecurity
-Will, to have the ability to make choices
-Institutions, to standardize and automate the process of governance
-Understanding of human imperfections, to create something that can account for our own limitations
-the lawgiver, some sort of founding visionary who is able to set this up and then get out of the way

And throughout his films Nolan plays with these ideas. Lets take the idea of stability. This runs through everything: The Joker’s argument that we can only be as good as our environment allows us to be (and his attempts to demonstrate that by altering the conditions of Gotham. The joker is the embodiment of the loss of control in the face of arbitrary power. The metaphor at the end of Batman Begins where the city literally tears itself apart from fear. If we cannot control our context we cannot master ourselves. And to a certain extent that’s true. Batman usually has to come in and save the citizens of Gotham, except when he doesn’t (they make the decision on the boat to save themselves. The city doesn’t tear itself apart when Bane reverts it to a state of nature). While Joker was gonna blow the boat anyway, and Bane was going to destroy Gotham, those moments are plot points that were needed to make these movies, not just exercises in political theory. Although it’s worth noting that the problem is elites fighting elites, and if we could just reduce their power in general none of this would be a problem to begin with.

And the fact that the citizens do occasionally save themselves, when not artificially induced to destroy each other (via the fear toxin, for instance) means that at least some of this is a question of will. Raz A Gul is pretty explicity that we’re all agents capable of making moral choices. Gotham is to be punished because its citizens chose to be corrupt. Crime is a property of society’s indulgence. There is no context. “the criminal is not complicated.” You don’t need to have Batman’s resources to make a difference. ‘The training is nothing. The will is everything. The will to act.’ Batman agrees. But Rachel Dawes, his moral center, doesn’t. As long as people are afraid they won’t act. Perhaps they need something to make them be less afraid. But Batman can’t be that person because he’s illegitimate—because he isn’t accountable to the city in the way that Harvey Dent could be.

But if our democratic institutions are corrupted, how do we preserve them. Can they be purified from the inside, when the image of authority is much more Fleiss than Gordon? Although it’s not like Gordon is an angel. He reminds Dent that politics is compromise, incremental rewards for incredible work, and that if you want other people to live cleanly you have to get yourself dirty. “I don’t get points for being an idealist. I have to do the best I can with what I have.” Of course for most people that's not enough. We yearn for purity, which is why Batman sacrifices himself to preserve Den's image. The whole Dent act is built on a lie, and while that bothers Gordon to the point that he comes clean, he also very quickly learns that he doesn’t have the luxury of clean hands—he sees what Bane does with the truth, and at the end of the series keeps Batman’s identity a secret even though it’s a lie—because it’s a lie that will produce a greater good. Alfred lectures Bruce about this throughout the movies. But if we NEED these people, and these lies, are we really capable of self-rule? Can we trust the people we empower to lie to us? How do we resolve these tensions?

To stick with Alfred, while Wayne gets the 'burn the forest down' advice in Dark Knight, in Dark Knight Rises Alfred's position evolves--Gotham doesn't need Batman. It needs Wayne's resources (and while he mothballs his generator because he's afraid of other people/people who aren't him using it, they get ahold of it anyway. Could it have been safer if it was in public hands? Could security measures have been built in? At least we would have gotten a lot of clean energy out of it. But his attempt to keep us safe without our consent backfires. And Alfred is right about him confronting Bane. If, instead of going after Bane himself he brought along a few SWAT teams the movie ends a few hours early, but Gotham is saved. At that point we really didn't need Batman. In fact, Batman made things worse. He saves the day in the end, but he's also cleaning up his own mess.

There's a lot of tensions, and I think Nolan reaches some tentative conclusions, but I think his conclusions are far less interesting then the questions he raises, and the way he embeds them in the characters in his story. I could go on for pages, but you get the idea. I could also go back and edit this, but instead I’m just going to hope it’s reasonably clear. It’s been a while since I sat down and thought about these movies.
LoathedVermin72 wrote: I think Nolan's Batman movies suck, and it's largely because he DOES confuse darkness for depth. Again, that's a superficial, tonal quality.
and this is why you're wrong :)

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 2:10 am
by bada
Image

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 2:29 am
by BurtReynolds
I want to kill myself.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 2:31 am
by stip
Here's a puzzler. While I think Smaug could beat Darth Vader in a fight, I think Darth Vader could beat Superman, but Superman could beat Smaug.

Weird, huh.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 2:33 am
by tommymtcom
Who would win in a three way fight?

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 2:34 am
by BurtReynolds
Of all the terrible movie sins LV is guilty of, his most heinous would have to be making me side with stip on something. He's a very bad man.

Team Smaug for life.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 2:55 am
by bada
Its pretty funny you challenged LV to an essay off but it was a nice write up Stip.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 3:00 am
by LoathedVermin72
bada wrote:Its pretty funny you challenged LV to an essay off but it was a nice write up Stip.
The sad truth is that I remember so little of those movies that I don't really know what to say without rewatching them.

Re: Movie: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (2016)

Posted: Sat September 12, 2015 3:03 am
by stip
LoathedVermin72 wrote:
bada wrote:Its pretty funny you challenged LV to an essay off but it was a nice write up Stip.
The sad truth is that I remember so little of those movies that I don't really know what to say without rewatching them.
well I'm asking you to defend man of steel. I just chose to write about the Nolan movies because you were dismissing them earlier.