NHL Thread

[philpritchard]

I don't want to be accused of saying Seguin will be the next Stamkos, but I don't think you can say he's Daigle. Again, AD had 2 points in 12 career playoff games. Seguin had more than that in both games and points in his rookie year. Also, b/c it seems crazy in the 2-line Offside Era: Daigle's first 4 seasons he had a +/- of -45, -22, -30, -33 and never had a positive +/- over his career.

Again, though, take a look at the rest of the team those first few years. When a team goes 14-61-9, a -45 doesn't seem all that bad... hell, it was only fourth worst on the team! If you put Seguin on a team whose best defensemen are Brad Shaw and Gord Dineen and who relies on Craig Billington as the number one goalie... yeah, his numbers probably wouldn't be all that impressive.

Anyway, like I said, I don't expect him to look anything like Daigle going forward. To me, there are enough similarities to make it a realistic comparison.

[philpritchard]

I think Seguin is more comparable to Kessel than Daigle. Seguin has more points in his first couple seasons, but they're both almost the same player and both seem to have/had maturity issues.

I don't think really see that as a comparable. They both had underwhelming rookie seasons after being drafted early, but after that their paths have been completely different. Kessel has slowly and steadily improved pretty much every year since then, while Seguin took a huge, quick leap forward and then regressed. The playoff thing isn't remotely close, either.

[elliseamos]

Anyway, like I said, I don't expect him to look anything like Daigle going forward. To me, there are enough similarities to make it a realistic comparison.

If anything you and MattA are saying Daigle was better than Seguin to this point in their respective careers. Which I don't believe. The argument that he was alone doesn't hold up in my opinion b/c he had Yashin with him (putting up 70+ point seasons and improving his +/- every year) who was a rookie then too. Additionally, AD's last season with OTT he had Yashin, Shawn Mceachern, Wade Redden, and Daniel Alfredsson with him.

[MattA75]

I think Seguin is more comparable to Kessel than Daigle. Seguin has more points in his first couple seasons, but they're both almost the same player and both seem to have/had maturity issues.

Kessel was on a worse team his first two years (while also battling cancer) and he popped for 36 goals in his 3rd season (his last before the trade)...Seguin's stats this year put him at 27 goals and 54 points over a full season

[numbers]

I still think Seguin has Stamkos-esque potential. It's not common for a player of his calibur and draft status to end up on one of the top franchises in the league in the midst of cup runs. You cant compare his growth to most other top draft picks, he's come into a completely different situation than most of the others. The Bruins havent given Seguin the luxury of learning on the fly and making mistakes that almost all players in his situation get.

[MattA75]

Anyway, like I said, I don't expect him to look anything like Daigle going forward. To me, there are enough similarities to make it a realistic comparison.

If anything you and MattA are saying Daigle was better than Seguin to this point in their respective careers. Which I don't believe. The argument that he was alone doesn't hold up in my opinion b/c he had Yashin with him (putting up 70+ point seasons and improving his +/- every year) who was a rookie then too. Additionally, AD's last season with OTT he had Yashin, Shawn Mceachern, Wade Redden, and Daniel Alfredsson with him.

but that just furthers the point that by his last season in Ottawa, it finally became clear to them that he was never going to get it because he only played in less than half of the team's games

I have the same questions with Seguin...is he ever going to get it, or is he going to take his nice fat contract and be satisfied with that?

[MattA75]

I still think Seguin has Stamkos-esque potential. It's not common for a player of his calibur and draft status to end up on one of the top franchises in the league in the midst of cup runs. You cant compare his growth to most other top draft picks, he's come into a completely different situation than most of the others. The Bruins havent given Seguin the luxury of learning on the fly and making mistakes that almost all players in his situation get.

no, he's had the luxury of developing at his own pace with little to no pressure, while being able to learn on the job from Bergeron/Krejci...I think a lot of 18 year olds would kill for that situation

[philpritchard]

Anyway, like I said, I don't expect him to look anything like Daigle going forward. To me, there are enough similarities to make it a realistic comparison.

If anything you and MattA are saying Daigle was better than Seguin to this point in their respective careers. Which I don't believe. The argument that he was alone doesn't hold up in my opinion b/c he had Yashin with him (putting up 70+ point seasons and improving his +/- every year) who was a rookie then too. Additionally, AD's last season with OTT he had Yashin, Shawn Mceachern, Wade Redden, and Daniel Alfredsson with him.

I don't think there's really all that much difference in the players' offensive development through the first three seasons. The biggest difference is that Daigle actually had a solid rookie season while Seguin started off slowly. I don't take a lot of stock in +/- because there are just so many other factors that go into it. I wish there was linemates data from back then, because Yashin and Daigle were both centers, so I assume they rarely ever played together. Ottawa's top wingers before Alfredsson joined them in Daigle's third season were Sylvain Turgeon, Steve Larouche, Dave McLlwain and Bob Kudelski. He was primarily alone for his first two seasons. The team was just horrendous.

[philpritchard]

The Leafs have acquired Jonathan Bernier from the Kings for Ben Scrivens, Matt Frattin and a 2nd round pick.

Overall, I think I like it. Scrivens is a decent backup and the 2nd is... a 2nd. I'm not a fan of losing Frattin, since I think he really has a lot to offer, but the idea of a Reimer/Bernier tandem really gives me a lot of confidence.

[Mickey]

I'm surprised it happened so quickly. We knew Bernier was going somewhere but I thought it'd be dragged out a bit more. Not a bad return for the Kings--they get a true backup and avoid developing a Vancouver situation, plus Frattin. Whereas this could solve a lot of problems for the Leafs. I know some of y'all are hot on Reimer but Bernier might have a higher ceiling.

[philpritchard]

I'm surprised it happened so quickly. We knew Bernier was going somewhere but I thought it'd be dragged out a bit more. Not a bad return for the Kings--they get a true backup and avoid developing a Vancouver situation, plus Frattin. Whereas this could solve a lot of problems for the Leafs. I know some of y'all are hot on Reimer but Bernier might have a higher ceiling.

I actually agree with all of that. I think Reimer's going to be a very good goalie, but there's nothing wrong with having two good, young goalies to battle it out, especially given the injuries Reimer has had the last couple years. I think Frattin's going to be a very good player and I hate that he's no longer a Leaf, but they have some great depth on the wing that allows them to give up someone like him to upgrade elsewhere.

[MattA75]

I still don't understand why teams can make trades right now

[elliseamos]

but that just furthers the point that by his last season in Ottawa, it finally became clear to them that he was never going to get it because he only played in less than half of the team's games

I have the same questions with Seguin...is he ever going to get it, or is he going to take his nice fat contract and be satisfied with that?

i think he "gets it" since he's shown growth as a two-way player since his first year (not sure that AD was asked to that). also, considering he's had to change positions since day-one and has been in a pressure-cooker town while contending for cups, i'd say he's fine.

no, he's had the luxury of developing at his own pace with little to no pressure, while being able to learn on the job from Bergeron/Krejci...I think a lot of 18 year olds would kill for that situation

but he's not developing at his own pace w/o pressure, he's had to learn to play the wing, in a difficult system, with high expectations for he and his team. he's not learning from bergeron/krejci, as much as he's learned from Ryder, Recchi, and Jagr (temporary elder-statesmen). and nobody is saying he doesn't want to be here... you're the one saying he should go b/c he's the next daigle.

The biggest difference is that Daigle actually had a solid rookie season while Seguin started off slowly.

could it be that he was learning to play the wing in the Bs system?

I don't take a lot of stock in +/- because there are just so many other factors that go into it. I wish there was linemates data from back then, because Yashin and Daigle were both centers, so I assume they rarely ever played together.

my point was more that the two of them started out together as the foundation of this new franchise... not that they literally played on the ice together. but you do notice the huge improvements yashin made in +/- (for what it's worth) over the same time-period and the same "supporting cast."

i'd say the pressure on seguin is greater b/c he's replacing kessel and his performances (take this year's playoff scrutiny) are magnified b/c the team is a contender.

[surfndestroy]

Put Seguin on a team like Tampa and he would blossom into the offensive talent he's been rated to have. But that's not the system Boston plays and Bostpn's system doesn't necessarily play to his strengths. Basically, Seguin's been asked to take on a Stevie Y. type role from day one, without he luxury of having a few great offensive years under his belt to relax the critics.

[elliseamos]

Put Seguin on a team like Tampa and he would blossom into the offensive talent he's been rated to have. But that's not the system Boston plays and Bostpn's system doesn't necessarily play to his strengths. Basically, Seguin's been asked to take on a Stevie Y. type role from day one, without he luxury of having a few great offensive years under his belt to relax the critics.

except yzerman was a centerman, and played against '80s goaltenders. how come we don't have these conversations about the guy picked AHEAD of seguin? look at skinner's trajectory or nino neiderreiter's. now those guys suggest daigle-like comparisons.

[surfndestroy]

Put Seguin on a team like Tampa and he would blossom into the offensive talent he's been rated to have. But that's not the system Boston plays and Bostpn's system doesn't necessarily play to his strengths. Basically, Seguin's been asked to take on a Stevie Y. type role from day one, without he luxury of having a few great offensive years under his belt to relax the critics.

except yzerman was a centerman, and played against '80s goaltenders. how come we don't have these conversations about the guy picked AHEAD of seguin?

I think Julien's been wrong for the past two seasons to keep Seguin on the wing. He's a natural centre but not Julien's kind of centre.

[elliseamos]

Put Seguin on a team like Tampa and he would blossom into the offensive talent he's been rated to have. But that's not the system Boston plays and Bostpn's system doesn't necessarily play to his strengths. Basically, Seguin's been asked to take on a Stevie Y. type role from day one, without he luxury of having a few great offensive years under his belt to relax the critics.

except yzerman was a centerman, and played against '80s goaltenders. how come we don't have these conversations about the guy picked AHEAD of seguin?

I think Julien's been wrong for the past two seasons to keep Seguin on the wing. He's a natural centre but not Julien's kind of centre.

to be clear, i don't have a problem with that if he continues to develop as he is.

[numbers]

I still think Seguin has Stamkos-esque potential. It's not common for a player of his calibur and draft status to end up on one of the top franchises in the league in the midst of cup runs. You cant compare his growth to most other top draft picks, he's come into a completely different situation than most of the others. The Bruins havent given Seguin the luxury of learning on the fly and making mistakes that almost all players in his situation get.

no, he's had the luxury of developing at his own pace with little to no pressure, while being able to learn on the job from Bergeron/Krejci...I think a lot of 18 year olds would kill for that situation

He's been given no room to grow, which I dont blame the Bruins for and I dont think is necessarily a bad thing for Seguin. If he's playing like shit, he gets dropped to the 3rd line and sees his ice time slashed. If he's on a rebuilding team he's the first line center and plays big minutes and his mistakes are accepted and ignored.

[elliseamos]

I still think Seguin has Stamkos-esque potential. It's not common for a player of his calibur and draft status to end up on one of the top franchises in the league in the midst of cup runs. You cant compare his growth to most other top draft picks, he's come into a completely different situation than most of the others. The Bruins havent given Seguin the luxury of learning on the fly and making mistakes that almost all players in his situation get.

no, he's had the luxury of developing at his own pace with little to no pressure, while being able to learn on the job from Bergeron/Krejci...I think a lot of 18 year olds would kill for that situation

He's been given no room to grow, which I dont blame the Bruins for and I dont think is necessarily a bad thing for Seguin. If he's playing like shit, he gets dropped to the 3rd line and sees his ice time slashed. If he's on a rebuilding team he's the first line center and plays big minutes and his mistakes are accepted and ignored.

this.

[verb_to_trust]

Guys, you are talking like the series is over and it is the offseason already.