Red Mosquito

tragabigzanda wrote:“De-emphasizing”

Spoiler: show

tragabigzanda wrote:Four more years!

Stickman wrote:IDF ‘violated orders’ tying Palestinian to jeep bonnet

Spoiler: show

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

until the world stops screaming about the symptoms and deals with the disease that is Hamas

Bi, what are your thoughts on Israel handing authority of West Bank occupation to the Settlements Administration, which is run by a fervent supporter of expanding Israeli settlements in (and the ultimate annexation of) the occupied zone?

I ask because I think choices like that inevitably serve to nurture Palestinian (and regional) support for Hamas, and exacerbate those fears of displacement which can only lead to violent action.

I have stated before and will again that I think the settlements in the Wes Bank are awful and should be removed by the Israeli army at the first opportunity. And I completely agree that behavior like that would drive support for retribution anywhere but particularly in Islamic cultures where they can bee seen as an affront to god. BUT. The world must get to a point where it is politically possible to shift Israel away from aggression and militarism, something that can only be accomplished when the have a sense of safety. It's a viscous circle but so long as the missiles fly in from Gaza in the west and Lebanon in north, leaders like Bibi will be able to maintain and expand power. So the question is who has to disarm first? The non-state terrorist groups being sponsored by foul theocratic thugs or the panicked liberal democratic country with nukes?

I’ve been thinking about this and I’m fundamentally hung up on, what sounds to me, your argument is that “War kills innocent people,” when I’m viewing this as “Israel is killing innocent people.”

B wrote:

Stickman wrote:IDF ‘violated orders’ tying Palestinian to jeep bonnet

Spoiler: show

I didn't understand what that meant so I clicked the link. I was sadly surprised at what actually happened.

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

until the world stops screaming about the symptoms and deals with the disease that is Hamas

Bi, what are your thoughts on Israel handing authority of West Bank occupation to the Settlements Administration, which is run by a fervent supporter of expanding Israeli settlements in (and the ultimate annexation of) the occupied zone?

I ask because I think choices like that inevitably serve to nurture Palestinian (and regional) support for Hamas, and exacerbate those fears of displacement which can only lead to violent action.

I have stated before and will again that I think the settlements in the Wes Bank are awful and should be removed by the Israeli army at the first opportunity. And I completely agree that behavior like that would drive support for retribution anywhere but particularly in Islamic cultures where they can bee seen as an affront to god. BUT. The world must get to a point where it is politically possible to shift Israel away from aggression and militarism, something that can only be accomplished when the have a sense of safety. It's a viscous circle but so long as the missiles fly in from Gaza in the west and Lebanon in north, leaders like Bibi will be able to maintain and expand power. So the question is who has to disarm first? The non-state terrorist groups being sponsored by foul theocratic thugs or the panicked liberal democratic country with nukes?

I’ve been thinking about this and I’m fundamentally hung up on, what sounds to me, your argument is that “War kills innocent people,” when I’m viewing this as “Israel is killing innocent people.”

Well, it's 100% accurate that Israel's actions are killing innocent people alongside Hamas members. But please recognize this and the tragedy of the last 9 months is in response to the ~1200 Israelis that were killed on 10/7 last year, which broke a sustained period of peace between Israel and Gaza. Now we can back and forth as to whether that was in response to something else which was caused by another thing and this third thing and don't forget about until the end of time, but none of that really matters because nothing will change until the fighting stops.

Riiiight but the US wasn't directly complicit in those other 1200 deaths, correct? (And maybe they were somehow, vis-a-vis arms sales, training, etc. -- please clarify if I'm wrong). It's about whether or not it's fair to equate a vote for Biden with the death of civilians in Palestine. And of course you could argue that a vote against Biden -- or not vote at all -- would also cause deaths. But ethically, and from a "power of the vote perspective," I'm struggling to see how that pencils out.

Bi_3 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

until the world stops screaming about the symptoms and deals with the disease that is Hamas

Bi, what are your thoughts on Israel handing authority of West Bank occupation to the Settlements Administration, which is run by a fervent supporter of expanding Israeli settlements in (and the ultimate annexation of) the occupied zone?

I ask because I think choices like that inevitably serve to nurture Palestinian (and regional) support for Hamas, and exacerbate those fears of displacement which can only lead to violent action.

I have stated before and will again that I think the settlements in the Wes Bank are awful and should be removed by the Israeli army at the first opportunity. And I completely agree that behavior like that would drive support for retribution anywhere but particularly in Islamic cultures where they can bee seen as an affront to god. BUT. The world must get to a point where it is politically possible to shift Israel away from aggression and militarism, something that can only be accomplished when the have a sense of safety. It's a viscous circle but so long as the missiles fly in from Gaza in the west and Lebanon in north, leaders like Bibi will be able to maintain and expand power. So the question is who has to disarm first? The non-state terrorist groups being sponsored by foul theocratic thugs or the panicked liberal democratic country with nukes?

I’ve been thinking about this and I’m fundamentally hung up on, what sounds to me, your argument is that “War kills innocent people,” when I’m viewing this as “Israel is killing innocent people.”

Well, it's 100% accurate that Israel's actions are killing innocent people alongside Hamas members. But please recognize this and the tragedy of the last 9 months is in response to the ~1200 Israelis that were killed on 10/7 last year, which broke a sustained period of peace between Israel and Gaza. Now we can back and forth as to whether that was in response to something else which was caused by another thing and this third thing and don't forget about until the end of time, but none of that really matters because nothing will change until the fighting stops.

Rob wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

tragabigzanda wrote:

Bi_3 wrote:

McParadigm wrote:

until the world stops screaming about the symptoms and deals with the disease that is Hamas

Bi, what are your thoughts on Israel handing authority of West Bank occupation to the Settlements Administration, which is run by a fervent supporter of expanding Israeli settlements in (and the ultimate annexation of) the occupied zone?

I ask because I think choices like that inevitably serve to nurture Palestinian (and regional) support for Hamas, and exacerbate those fears of displacement which can only lead to violent action.

I have stated before and will again that I think the settlements in the Wes Bank are awful and should be removed by the Israeli army at the first opportunity. And I completely agree that behavior like that would drive support for retribution anywhere but particularly in Islamic cultures where they can bee seen as an affront to god. BUT. The world must get to a point where it is politically possible to shift Israel away from aggression and militarism, something that can only be accomplished when the have a sense of safety. It's a viscous circle but so long as the missiles fly in from Gaza in the west and Lebanon in north, leaders like Bibi will be able to maintain and expand power. So the question is who has to disarm first? The non-state terrorist groups being sponsored by foul theocratic thugs or the panicked liberal democratic country with nukes?

I’ve been thinking about this and I’m fundamentally hung up on, what sounds to me, your argument is that “War kills innocent people,” when I’m viewing this as “Israel is killing innocent people.”

Well, it's 100% accurate that Israel's actions are killing innocent people alongside Hamas members. But please recognize this and the tragedy of the last 9 months is in response to the ~1200 Israelis that were killed on 10/7 last year, which broke a sustained period of peace between Israel and Gaza. Now we can back and forth as to whether that was in response to something else which was caused by another thing and this third thing and don't forget about until the end of time, but none of that really matters because nothing will change until the fighting stops.

I can’t read this without thinking you’re telling us to forget all the things that led to this situation because none of it matters. This is what it’s kind of looked like the last 20 years or so. Perhaps that’s why the spiral continues.

B wrote:Has any lasting peace been achieved in any way?

Bi_3 wrote:

B wrote:Has any lasting peace been achieved in any way?

Sure, the EU, US/Japan, even an Egypt/Israel type deal would qualify as a win between Israel and Gaza