Red Mosquito

stupidmop wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I still don't see what's apparently so un-Pearl Jam about the song.

Neither do I. I remember reading one post on here which said that this song is probably how most people who don't listen to Pearl Jam imagine the band would sound like and I agree. I think it seems like an natural progression from Backspacer and the Pink Floyd cover they were doing last year.

Agreed (and that's an excellent, and accurate, point about the perception of the band among non-fans).

Non-fans generally remember Jeremy or something off of Ten. I don't see how Pearl Jam is perceived to be a band that could write Sirens. I guess that's a perception about the non-fans here, more than anything else.

Just my experience obviously but I haven't seen anyone outside of this fanbase think this song is a left turn for the band. I've heard people say it's classic pearl jam, I've heard others say it's the typical bland stuff that middle-aged rock band come up with, but I haven't seen anyone shocked at this being a Pearl Jam as some people seem to be around here.

no one outside the fanbase would think that. We've spent 20 years post 10 listening to pearl jam music that doesn't sound like this and getting frustrated that the rest of the world thinks they sound like sirens

Turns out they were right all along

Again, RM is assuming how people outside perceive Pearl Jam. Even if they only listened to Ten, Sirens would be a shock.

There are people who have no idea that alive is about lies and incest and consider it an annoying life affirming song. 'Heyy I'm still alive, good for you.mother Fucker' .

Those people.

I assume you'd agree with me if I say that most people zero in on ed when hearing a pearl jam song, and I don't think there's much difference hearing him sing 'hey I'm still alive' 'why can't it be, can it be mine' ' want you to know I always loved you, held you high above too'

I don't agree that people would hear Sirens similarly to those songs, no. Even if all they do is zero in on Ed. There was too much rage and angst. There is absolutely nothing of that sort here. This is a vulnerable Ed, something unfamiliar to people who heard Ten.

Fuzzcharger wrote:

stip wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

stip wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:I still don't see what's apparently so un-Pearl Jam about the song.

Neither do I. I remember reading one post on here which said that this song is probably how most people who don't listen to Pearl Jam imagine the band would sound like and I agree.

except we've always argued that this isn't true and that people's perceptions of what pearl jam's music was are wrong.

How can you have always argued it when Sirens has only been out for a few days?

but like Release_Me said, the initial responses in this thread, the negative ones and the WTF ones, were not people being shocked or pissed that pearl jam wrote a song they thought sucked. It was that they never expected pearl jam to write a song that sounded like this and many of us defined their sound in opposition to songs like this. It just happens that 'this' is what much of the rest of the world has always thought pearl jam was.

Really? My reading was that the people that disliked it just thought it was a genuinely bad song. A cheesy song. I don't really care if other people like it or not. But it seems ridiculous that someone thinks they can tell me that the only reason I don't like it is because I've only heard it a handful of times and that I haven't come to accept that Pearl Jam have written a song like this and that I should listen to it incessantly until I have some 'light bulb' revelatory moment about it's emotional power and join the majority in a forum poll.

most of the people who said they didn't like it said it was a genuinely bad song. And then they listened a few more times and loved it. That happened over and over again in this thread. Trust me on that. It was a very common reaction.

Some people (not me) had a total 180 and now adore it. Some people (like me) had a 90 turn and now like it. Some people never changed. But initial reactions on this song have been very unreliable. And not in a 'well I can see somethings here I like and then the song grows on me'. These were dramatically different reactions. I can't think of another pearl jam song in my time on the board that had this sort of response. And I think it is makes sense to argue that a huge chunk of this is people having to get over their resistance to the genre/style the song is written in (one most of us probably hate). Once you can get past that and hear the song for what it is judgements seem to change.

And you may get past the 'pearl jam wrote an 80s power ballad wall' and just end up with 'pearl jam didn't write a very good song.' I am in no way,shape, or form arguing that everyone is going to like this song. But it does take a few listens to strike the 80s power ballad from your perception to hear the song.

Maybe what you don't like about it is all those power ballad choices. And that's also legit. I'm not saying that you're wrong to dislike it for those reasons. But again there's a difference between disliking it because of how the choices sound and disliking it a priori because the choices were made.

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Lament wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't know what to say other than the polls show more people like the song than those who don't. There's no other point.

Uh, cool...?

I still can't fathom what relevance that has to the discussion at hand but I doubt there's much to be gained by chewing it over further.

It feels as though you're countering an argument nobody is making.

That makes 2 of us.

Guys, we're just wrong for not liking Sirens.

I'm gonna go listen to Crown of Thorns and think about how wrong I am. Enjoy the Sirens, guys.

I made a general statement about people either coming around to liking it or not accepting it as a Pearl Jam song, based on the reactions I read here. Suddenly, all those who despise the song get defensive and start explaining how they don't like it because it's just not good. Well, my post wasn't directed at you then. I'm talking about those who despise it just because it's a Pearl Jam song and something they didn't want or expect Pearl Jam to do. If you don't like it, feel secure in your reasons for not liking it. Not a big deal.

The argument started precisely because you said people were going to either a) come around or b) not accept it as a Pearl Jam song. That just makes it look like those are the only two options, and that it's impossible to c) accept it and still not like it.

I do think it's pretty fair to say, based on a lot of evidence in this thread, that it may take a few listens to know for sure that it is C, and not B, however.

If I thought this was a very un-Pearl Jam song I would agree. But I've watched Pearl Jam go a less dark, more radio-friendly road for years now, so there is nothing about them making this song that surprises me.

Less dark and more radio friendly are such broad terms that they encompass a huge chunk of music. Sirens is almost a 6 minutes long ballad reminiscent of the 80s but without some of the elements which made those songs so popular, namely a singable chorus. Pearl Jam have not combined the elements to make such a song before. It starts to sound like Pearl Jam once you've heard it a few times. Initial listens do not evoke any sense of familiarity. Their attempts at pop have been short, sharp and not fully realised like this.

Well I'm not arguing that they made the exact same song before, just that it looks like a logical extension©®™ of what they've been doing lately.

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Lament wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't know what to say other than the polls show more people like the song than those who don't. There's no other point.

Uh, cool...?

I still can't fathom what relevance that has to the discussion at hand but I doubt there's much to be gained by chewing it over further.

It feels as though you're countering an argument nobody is making.

That makes 2 of us.

Guys, we're just wrong for not liking Sirens.

I'm gonna go listen to Crown of Thorns and think about how wrong I am. Enjoy the Sirens, guys.

I made a general statement about people either coming around to liking it or not accepting it as a Pearl Jam song, based on the reactions I read here. Suddenly, all those who despise the song get defensive and start explaining how they don't like it because it's just not good. Well, my post wasn't directed at you then. I'm talking about those who despise it just because it's a Pearl Jam song and something they didn't want or expect Pearl Jam to do. If you don't like it, feel secure in your reasons for not liking it. Not a big deal.

The argument started precisely because you said people were going to either a) come around or b) not accept it as a Pearl Jam song. That just makes it look like those are the only two options, and that it's impossible to c) accept it and still not like it.

It did? Then I should have specified those are not the only two options. I always thought people who didn't like the song because they just didn't like it wouldn't feel like I was addressing them.

stip wrote:Trust me on that

NEVER GONNA HAPPEN

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Lament wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't know what to say other than the polls show more people like the song than those who don't. There's no other point.

Uh, cool...?

I still can't fathom what relevance that has to the discussion at hand but I doubt there's much to be gained by chewing it over further.

It feels as though you're countering an argument nobody is making.

That makes 2 of us.

Guys, we're just wrong for not liking Sirens.

I'm gonna go listen to Crown of Thorns and think about how wrong I am. Enjoy the Sirens, guys.

I made a general statement about people either coming around to liking it or not accepting it as a Pearl Jam song, based on the reactions I read here. Suddenly, all those who despise the song get defensive and start explaining how they don't like it because it's just not good. Well, my post wasn't directed at you then. I'm talking about those who despise it just because it's a Pearl Jam song and something they didn't want or expect Pearl Jam to do. If you don't like it, feel secure in your reasons for not liking it. Not a big deal.

The argument started precisely because you said people were going to either a) come around or b) not accept it as a Pearl Jam song. That just makes it look like those are the only two options, and that it's impossible to c) accept it and still not like it.

It did? Then I should have specified those are not the only two options. I always thought people who didn't like the song because they just didn't like it wouldn't feel like I was addressing them.

That's often how people will read "either a or b".

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

stip wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Lament wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't know what to say other than the polls show more people like the song than those who don't. There's no other point.

Uh, cool...?

I still can't fathom what relevance that has to the discussion at hand but I doubt there's much to be gained by chewing it over further.

It feels as though you're countering an argument nobody is making.

That makes 2 of us.

Guys, we're just wrong for not liking Sirens.

I'm gonna go listen to Crown of Thorns and think about how wrong I am. Enjoy the Sirens, guys.

I made a general statement about people either coming around to liking it or not accepting it as a Pearl Jam song, based on the reactions I read here. Suddenly, all those who despise the song get defensive and start explaining how they don't like it because it's just not good. Well, my post wasn't directed at you then. I'm talking about those who despise it just because it's a Pearl Jam song and something they didn't want or expect Pearl Jam to do. If you don't like it, feel secure in your reasons for not liking it. Not a big deal.

The argument started precisely because you said people were going to either a) come around or b) not accept it as a Pearl Jam song. That just makes it look like those are the only two options, and that it's impossible to c) accept it and still not like it.

I do think it's pretty fair to say, based on a lot of evidence in this thread, that it may take a few listens to know for sure that it is C, and not B, however.

If I thought this was a very un-Pearl Jam song I would agree. But I've watched Pearl Jam go a less dark, more radio-friendly road for years now, so there is nothing about them making this song that surprises me.

Less dark and more radio friendly are such broad terms that they encompass a huge chunk of music. Sirens is almost a 6 minutes long ballad reminiscent of the 80s but without some of the elements which made those songs so popular, namely a singable chorus. Pearl Jam have not combined the elements to make such a song before. It starts to sound like Pearl Jam once you've heard it a few times. Initial listens do not evoke any sense of familiarity. Their attempts at pop have been short, sharp and not fully realised like this.

Well I'm not arguing that they made the exact same song before, just that it looks like a logical extension©®™ of what they've been doing lately.

Only what they've been doing lately is hiding under a rock as far as most people are concerned. Those of us who didn't like the direction the band took from Backspacer on (I am not one of them) just consider all of this an attempt to get popular and write a radio friendly tune. Everything they do which isn't reminiscent of the famed middle period where they made difficult, dark, dreary music is somehow an attempt to get back their fame or become relevant again. It might be, but I don't see how lumping all the music, which is going off in an opposite direction to what you would want, together actually makes it the same. It isn't.

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Lament wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't know what to say other than the polls show more people like the song than those who don't. There's no other point.

Uh, cool...?

I still can't fathom what relevance that has to the discussion at hand but I doubt there's much to be gained by chewing it over further.

It feels as though you're countering an argument nobody is making.

That makes 2 of us.

Guys, we're just wrong for not liking Sirens.

I'm gonna go listen to Crown of Thorns and think about how wrong I am. Enjoy the Sirens, guys.

I made a general statement about people either coming around to liking it or not accepting it as a Pearl Jam song, based on the reactions I read here. Suddenly, all those who despise the song get defensive and start explaining how they don't like it because it's just not good. Well, my post wasn't directed at you then. I'm talking about those who despise it just because it's a Pearl Jam song and something they didn't want or expect Pearl Jam to do. If you don't like it, feel secure in your reasons for not liking it. Not a big deal.

The argument started precisely because you said people were going to either a) come around or b) not accept it as a Pearl Jam song. That just makes it look like those are the only two options, and that it's impossible to c) accept it and still not like it.

It did? Then I should have specified those are not the only two options. I always thought people who didn't like the song because they just didn't like it wouldn't feel like I was addressing them.

That's often how people will read "either a or b".

Only I never specified the options as 'either a or b' to give the impression that those are the only available ones.

After reading a couple of pages I realize how much I miss having the time to be in these kinds of threads & discussions from the start...


NOT!

I kinda like the song. Not in a "it's blowing me away" way, but more because my New Pearl Jam Album/Song expectations have taken a massive hit after the last 2 albums.

If I ran a poll for the most self-absorbed and boring poster on here I wonder if Release_Me would be in the majority of the votes.

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Lament wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't know what to say other than the polls show more people like the song than those who don't. There's no other point.

Uh, cool...?

I still can't fathom what relevance that has to the discussion at hand but I doubt there's much to be gained by chewing it over further.

It feels as though you're countering an argument nobody is making.

That makes 2 of us.

Guys, we're just wrong for not liking Sirens.

I'm gonna go listen to Crown of Thorns and think about how wrong I am. Enjoy the Sirens, guys.

I made a general statement about people either coming around to liking it or not accepting it as a Pearl Jam song, based on the reactions I read here. Suddenly, all those who despise the song get defensive and start explaining how they don't like it because it's just not good. Well, my post wasn't directed at you then. I'm talking about those who despise it just because it's a Pearl Jam song and something they didn't want or expect Pearl Jam to do. If you don't like it, feel secure in your reasons for not liking it. Not a big deal.

The argument started precisely because you said people were going to either a) come around or b) not accept it as a Pearl Jam song. That just makes it look like those are the only two options, and that it's impossible to c) accept it and still not like it.

It did? Then I should have specified those are not the only two options. I always thought people who didn't like the song because they just didn't like it wouldn't feel like I was addressing them.

That's often how people will read "either a or b".

Only I never specified the options as 'either a or b' to give the impression that those are the only available ones.

This post in particular doesn't read like you're in any way open to 'option c':

Once you get past the initial 'WTF did I just hear? Is that a Pearl Jam song?' You will get to appreciate the fact that this is really one of the best things they have ever done. Or you won't because you just can't accept that they made this song.

A big reason why many, many people grew to love Pearl Jam in the first place was their anti-rock star attitude combined with their amazing songwriting and musicianship. These people could appreciate everything the band done through most of their career because they were always putting out material that was a little off-the-road, albeit with some very radio friendly songs thrown in there, but even those had anti-pop elements to them that people respected, like how Last Kiss was recorded during a sound-check and released as a fan-club single and then solely for charity on a compilation. They didn't make Last Kiss for the fame or money. That's just an example.

Sirens, however, reeks of a band that is grasping for the mainstream with the ultimate stereo-typical power ballad formula. This is exactly what PJ were AGAINST for so many years, and the reason many people loved them over those years. So, essentially for those people, myself included, we are having a hard time dealing with the fact that our favorite band that we loved for their anti-rock star attitudes are now going for that rock star throne.

This song might do the opposite of what Vitalogy started and No Code finished...

Fuzzcharger wrote:If I ran a poll for the most self-absorbed and boring poster on here I wonder if Release_Me would be in the majority of the votes.

Hey Fuzz, play the ball man.

LikeLukin wrote:A big reason why many, many people grew to love Pearl Jam in the first place was their anti-rock star attitude combined with their amazing songwriting and musicianship. These people could appreciate everything the band done through most of their career because they were always putting out material that was a little off-the-road, albeit with some very radio friendly songs thrown in there, but even those had anti-pop elements to them that people respected, like how Last Kiss was recorded during a sound-check and released as a fan-club single and then solely for charity on a compilation. They didn't make Last Kiss for the fame or money. That's just an example.

Sirens, however, reeks of a band that is grasping for the mainstream with the ultimate stereo-typical power ballad formula. This is exactly what PJ were AGAINST for so many years, and the reason many people loved them over those years. So, essentially for those people, myself included, we are having a hard time dealing with the fact that our favorite band that we loved for their anti-rock star attitudes are now going for that rock star throne.

This song might do the opposite of what Vitalogy started and No Code finished...

or maybe there's been a part of some of them (certainly mike, who wrote it) who always liked those kinds of songs and wanted to write one.

and yes, this is a single, but you should release the song with the widest appeal as a single because the point of a single is to attract attention to your new music. The people already on board don't need it. And in today's tribal music market releasing an insular single is pretty pointless. You could make a statement with Who You Are in 1996 because everyone would hear it. That's not the case today.

Fuzzcharger wrote:If I ran a poll for the most self-absorbed and boring poster on here I wonder if Release_Me would be in the majority of the votes.

Please, run the poll. I can already see myself running away with this!

stip wrote:

LikeLukin wrote:A big reason why many, many people grew to love Pearl Jam in the first place was their anti-rock star attitude combined with their amazing songwriting and musicianship. These people could appreciate everything the band done through most of their career because they were always putting out material that was a little off-the-road, albeit with some very radio friendly songs thrown in there, but even those had anti-pop elements to them that people respected, like how Last Kiss was recorded during a sound-check and released as a fan-club single and then solely for charity on a compilation. They didn't make Last Kiss for the fame or money. That's just an example.

Sirens, however, reeks of a band that is grasping for the mainstream with the ultimate stereo-typical power ballad formula. This is exactly what PJ were AGAINST for so many years, and the reason many people loved them over those years. So, essentially for those people, myself included, we are having a hard time dealing with the fact that our favorite band that we loved for their anti-rock star attitudes are now going for that rock star throne.

This song might do the opposite of what Vitalogy started and No Code finished...

or maybe there's been a part of some of them (certainly mike, who wrote it) who always liked those kinds of songs and wanted to write one.

and yes, this is a single, but you should release the song with the widest appeal as a single because the point of a single is to attract attention to your new music. The people already on board don't need it. And in today's tribal music market releasing an insular single is pretty pointless. You could make a statement with Who You Are in 1996 because everyone would hear it. That's not the case today.

Yes, that's evident about Mike. He was always my least favorite

I'm not saying they shouldn't have released it as a single. If you're gonna write a single, then release it. I'm just explaining why many of us dislike this song.

LetMeSleep wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:If I ran a poll for the most self-absorbed and boring poster on here I wonder if Release_Me would be in the majority of the votes.

Hey Fuzz, play the ball man.

Fair call. Probably best I not read anymore before I stab myself in the eye with a fork.

My poll reference is a fair joke though! C'mon!

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Heathen wrote:

Release_Me wrote:

Lament wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

Birds in Hell wrote:

Release_Me wrote:I don't know what to say other than the polls show more people like the song than those who don't. There's no other point.

Uh, cool...?

I still can't fathom what relevance that has to the discussion at hand but I doubt there's much to be gained by chewing it over further.

It feels as though you're countering an argument nobody is making.

That makes 2 of us.

Guys, we're just wrong for not liking Sirens.

I'm gonna go listen to Crown of Thorns and think about how wrong I am. Enjoy the Sirens, guys.

I made a general statement about people either coming around to liking it or not accepting it as a Pearl Jam song, based on the reactions I read here. Suddenly, all those who despise the song get defensive and start explaining how they don't like it because it's just not good. Well, my post wasn't directed at you then. I'm talking about those who despise it just because it's a Pearl Jam song and something they didn't want or expect Pearl Jam to do. If you don't like it, feel secure in your reasons for not liking it. Not a big deal.

The argument started precisely because you said people were going to either a) come around or b) not accept it as a Pearl Jam song. That just makes it look like those are the only two options, and that it's impossible to c) accept it and still not like it.

It did? Then I should have specified those are not the only two options. I always thought people who didn't like the song because they just didn't like it wouldn't feel like I was addressing them.

That's often how people will read "either a or b".

Only I never specified the options as 'either a or b' to give the impression that those are the only available ones.

This post in particular doesn't read like you're in any way open to 'option c':

Once you get past the initial 'WTF did I just hear? Is that a Pearl Jam song?' You will get to appreciate the fact that this is really one of the best things they have ever done. Or you won't because you just can't accept that they made this song.

Oh, yeah. I missed out "or you could something else". I thought that was inherent.

I just wrote down what I had seen over the last few days. If you don't fall into either category, you know you don't. Why waste so much time arguing over why I explicity didn't state a third option?

Fuzzcharger wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:If I ran a poll for the most self-absorbed and boring poster on here I wonder if Release_Me would be in the majority of the votes.

Hey Fuzz, play the ball man.

Fair call. Probably best I not read anymore before I stab myself in the eye with a fork.

My poll reference is a fair joke though! C'mon!

Had me rolling all over the floor laughing!

Release_Me wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:

LetMeSleep wrote:

Fuzzcharger wrote:If I ran a poll for the most self-absorbed and boring poster on here I wonder if Release_Me would be in the majority of the votes.

Hey Fuzz, play the ball man.

Fair call. Probably best I not read anymore before I stab myself in the eye with a fork.

My poll reference is a fair joke though! C'mon!

Had me rolling all over the floor laughing!