Red Mosquito

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:

Mine wrote:

harmless wrote:

Django Butterworth wrote:Be glad to.

Please tell me what they are, besides "I don't like S/T or Backspacer and this guy made some comments in a interview.".

I'd also like to know which of the songs on their albums he co-wrote. And how he is different from any other producer.

I've been reading this stuff for 4 years, and everything I've read from him and about him, his vision for the band and their music, has turned me off him. During Backspacer, he rearranged 'Just Breathe', changing a bridge to a chorus which appeared three times (I think), making the song "commercial" and neutered. He played an awfully-fitting piano part over Unthought Known, spoiling it for me. And he put what amounts to a space opera orchestra over Speed of Sound. The End is a song I thought he arranged and produced quite tastefully, even with the orchestra included, but its merits are rather clouded by the sugar-dusting all over the album in general.

I think the orchestral arrangement of The End is credited to somebody else though.

Interesting. Maybe that's why I prefer it... who knows.

Yup

Eddie Horst – string and horn arrangements

Nice. I wonder if Mr. Horst will be back for FD.

harmless wrote:

Django Butterworth wrote:Be glad to.

Please tell me what they are, besides "I don't like S/T or Backspacer and this guy made some comments in a interview.".

I'd also like to know which of the songs on their albums he co-wrote. And how he is different from any other producer.

I've been reading this stuff for 4 years, and everything I've read from him and about him, his vision for the band and their music, has turned me off him. During Backspacer, he rearranged 'Just Breathe', changing a bridge to a chorus which appeared three times (I think), making the song "commercial" and neutered. He played an awfully-fitting piano part over Unthought Known, spoiling it for me. And he put what amounts to a space opera orchestra over Speed of Sound. The End is a song I thought he arranged and produced quite tastefully, even with the orchestra included, but its merits are rather clouded by the sugar-dusting all over the album in general.

None of this is actually "co-writing". This is a producer, doing their job and being as involved as the band wants them to be.

I wouldn't overstate O'Brien's influence, I would just question his comments about them coming back to him when they want to make something more relevant. That only bothers me because I am not sure that band is capable of something as sonically powerful as Nothing As It Seems with him...but I credit that he brought many things to the band over the years that I thought made them better, like encouraging them in the early records to mess around with tones and not to be afraid to add layers - both hallmarks of what make me enjoy their music.

harmless wrote:Also, I wish he was Boom. I wish Boom could play keys on records and I wish Boom could learn to produce records so that they could fire BO'B and bring Boom on board.

I hope we are Facebook friends

groetjes,
Mirella

harmless wrote:Also, I wish he was Boom. I wish Boom could play keys on records and I wish Boom could learn to produce records so that they could fire BO'B and bring Boom on board.

Mirella wrote:

harmless wrote:Also, I wish he was Boom. I wish Boom could play keys on records and I wish Boom could learn to produce records so that they could fire BO'B and bring Boom on board.

I hope we are Facebook friends

groetjes,
Mirella

At the moment I'm not on FB, but you're FB friends with my wife

harmless wrote:

Mirella wrote:

harmless wrote:Also, I wish he was Boom. I wish Boom could play keys on records and I wish Boom could learn to produce records so that they could fire BO'B and bring Boom on board.

I hope we are Facebook friends

groetjes,
Mirella

At the moment I'm not on FB, but you're FB friends with my wife

Cool!

groetjes,
Mirella

I made it to this page. Still have to read 380 to 543 and the first 300 or so. But first, tonight: Soundgarden. Maybe we can catch Matt and interrogate him .

groetjes,
Mirella

Django Butterworth wrote:

harmless wrote:

Django Butterworth wrote:Be glad to.

Please tell me what they are, besides "I don't like S/T or Backspacer and this guy made some comments in a interview.".

I'd also like to know which of the songs on their albums he co-wrote. And how he is different from any other producer.

I've been reading this stuff for 4 years, and everything I've read from him and about him, his vision for the band and their music, has turned me off him. During Backspacer, he rearranged 'Just Breathe', changing a bridge to a chorus which appeared three times (I think), making the song "commercial" and neutered. He played an awfully-fitting piano part over Unthought Known, spoiling it for me. And he put what amounts to a space opera orchestra over Speed of Sound. The End is a song I thought he arranged and produced quite tastefully, even with the orchestra included, but its merits are rather clouded by the sugar-dusting all over the album in general.

None of this is actually "co-writing". This is a producer, doing their job and being as involved as the band wants them to be.

Django Butterworth wrote:None of this is actually "co-writing".

That depends on whether you think composition, arrangement and instrumentation are an inherent and crucial part of what a song is. I do, so to me, it is, whether or not it's labelled that on the records (because let's face it, they can use any synonym and rhetoric for whatever they want, to signify whatever they want -- if Matt writes writes a cool groove for a song, they can say he co-wrote the song, even if someone who didn't like rhythm would say he hasn't).

Django Butterworth wrote:This is a producer, doing their job

Hardly a typical producer, I would argue. Maybe I'm confusing 'producer' and 'sound engineer'. Maybe the latter has a much more singular approach pertaining to the music itself. But honestly, it's hard to argue, based on the evidence we have, that BO'B is not going far beyond the realms of what a typical record producer does. He's not meant to engineer their sound or act in a managerial / spokesperson role, he's meant to record their albums for them and then step back. All of which brings me to your last point...

Django Butterworth wrote:being as involved as the band wants them to be.

...which I will concede. Pearl Jam are obviously perfectly happy that he's doing what he's doing, and at this point in their career, they do seem to appreciate and welcome his everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach. They don't seem to mind his arrogant assumption of the 6th band member role. And for that, they're welcome to it and I will still like the music, here and there. But I don't like BO'B, and for good reason, I think. What I'll try and do from this point onwards is get over it and admit that the band does, so my opinion matters not a jot.

Is it wrong that I kinda like the piano part in UK?

Nope. There's every chance I'll grow to like it. It's not objectively bad. I hope I do grow to like it. In two albums from now (if they're still around), it's hard to know how we'll view the cotton candy that was Backspacer.

harmless wrote:Nope. There's every chance I'll grow to like it. It's not objectively bad. I hope I do grow to like it. In two albums from now (if they're still around), it's hard to know how we'll view the cotton candy that was Backspacer.

I've heard it mentioned before, and I agree, had LB followed Backspacer like a year later, then I think BS could have been viewed as a fun little detour, but sitting on it for 4 years just didn't help it any.

re: the piano part...yeah, it's a little corny, but I dig it. One of my complaints about the song live is that Boom can't seem to replicate it. For that, I'm guessing you like the live versions better?

darth_vedder wrote:

harmless wrote:Nope. There's every chance I'll grow to like it. It's not objectively bad. I hope I do grow to like it. In two albums from now (if they're still around), it's hard to know how we'll view the cotton candy that was Backspacer.

I've heard it mentioned before, and I agree, had LB followed Backspacer like a year later, then I think BS could have been viewed as a fun little detour, but sitting on it for 4 years just didn't help it any.

re: the piano part...yeah, it's a little corny, but I dig it. One of my complaints about the song live is that Boom can't seem to replicate it. For that, I'm guessing you like the live versions better?

I'm not generally a fan of live versions compared to their studio versions, but for this alone, maybe. Got a link to a good example? I'm just not a fan of chord playing that's too busy. I prefer to hear a chord played once and left to resonate over the bar. So the stuff in the beginning of the song is preferable to the harder piano played in that little instrumental part. I don't feel the same way about the guitar, by the way; the one-chord smash that resonates (what I think is a "The Who" type of approach) isn't all that interesting to me.

"Hardly a typical producer, I would argue. Maybe I'm confusing 'producer' and 'sound engineer'. Maybe the latter has a much more singular approach pertaining to the music itself. But honestly, it's hard to argue, based on the evidence we have, that BO'B is not going far beyond the realms of what a typical record producer does. He's not meant to engineer their sound or act in a managerial / spokesperson role, he's meant to record their albums for them and then step back. All of which brings me to your last point..."


Actually he is doing EXACTLY what a producer does. While Wikipedia isn't the best source, it does sum it up pretty well. I would time a summary instead of using it, BUT AIN'T NOBODY GOT TIME FOR THAT.



"A record producer is an individual working within the music industry, whose job is to oversee and manage the recording (i.e. "production") of an artist's music. A producer has many roles that may include, but are not limited to, gathering ideas for the project, selecting songs and/or musicians, coaching the artist and musicians in the studio, controlling the recording sessions, and supervising the entire process through mixing and mastering. Producers also often take on a wider entrepreneurial role, with responsibility for the budget, schedules, and negotiations.

Today, the recording industry has two kinds of producers: executive producer and music producer; they have different roles. While an executive producer oversees a project's finances, a music producer oversees the creation of the music.

A music producer can, in some cases, be compared to a film director, with noted practitioner Phil Ek himself describing his role as "the person who creatively guides or directs the process of making a record, like a director would a movie. The engineer would be more the cameraman of the movie."[1] The music producer's job is to create, shape, and mold a piece of music. The scope of responsibility may be one or two songs or an artist's entire album – in which case the producer will typically develop an overall vision for the album and how the various songs may interrelate.

In the US, before the rise of the record producer, someone from A&R would oversee the recording session(s), assuming responsibility for creative decisions relating to the recording.

With today's relatively easy access to technology, an alternative to the record producer just mentioned, is the so-called 'bedroom producer'. With today's technological advances, it is very easy for a producer to achieve high quality tracks without the use of a single instrument; that happens in urban music (like hip hop, rap, etc.). Many established artists take this approach.

In most cases the music producer is also a competent arranger, composer, musician or songwriter who can bring fresh ideas to a project. As well as making any songwriting and arrangement adjustments, the producer often selects and/or gives suggestions to the mixing engineer, who takes the raw recorded tracks and edits and modifies them with hardware and software tools and creates a stereo and/or surround sound "mix" of all the individual voices sounds and instruments, which is in turn given further adjustment by a mastering engineer. The producer will also liaise with the recording engineer who concentrates on the technical aspects of recording, whereas the executive producer keeps an eye on the overall project's marketability."

Interesting stuff. So I guess "producer" can be anywhere on the spectrum from "sound engineer guy" to full-on life coach. I just prefer the former, is all. But I concede that maybe Pearl Jam feel that they need the latter at this stage.

But I still reckon he's gone beyond even that, by having all these interviews, doing all these listening parties and basically being Lightning Bolt's sole promoter ahead of the record, give or take.

I'm just ready to hear PJ talk about it.

harmless wrote:

darth_vedder wrote:

harmless wrote:Nope. There's every chance I'll grow to like it. It's not objectively bad. I hope I do grow to like it. In two albums from now (if they're still around), it's hard to know how we'll view the cotton candy that was Backspacer.

I've heard it mentioned before, and I agree, had LB followed Backspacer like a year later, then I think BS could have been viewed as a fun little detour, but sitting on it for 4 years just didn't help it any.

re: the piano part...yeah, it's a little corny, but I dig it. One of my complaints about the song live is that Boom can't seem to replicate it. For that, I'm guessing you like the live versions better?

I'm not generally a fan of live versions compared to their studio versions, but for this alone, maybe. Got a link to a good example? I'm just not a fan of chord playing that's too busy. I prefer to hear a chord played once and left to resonate over the bar. So the stuff in the beginning of the song is preferable to the harder piano played in that little instrumental part. I don't feel the same way about the guitar, by the way; the one-chord smash that resonates (what I think is a "The Who" type of approach) isn't all that interesting to me.

The song definitely faded for me. I loved it at first, and thought it was absolutely brilliant. After a few months though, it, as well as the rest of the album, really took a nose dive for me.

re: Live versions, I don't have many recent boots...I kinda lost interest in them after the 2003 run. Mr. Spenno would know though. I have like 6 total versions of the song, and one if from Backspacer. The others are from: Brisbane, Cleveland, DC, Seattle 2, and Lima. I'd say the best live one out of that lot is Lima.

harmless wrote:I'm just ready to hear PJ talk about it.

Agree 1000% with this!

To me, beyond getting clips in an EPK, any talk of the album - by the band or the producer - is all white noise: I'll listen to it and make up my own mind what it means to me.