Red Mosquito

There is no "best".

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:

harmless wrote:

Tuolumne wrote:I think I could make a reasonable argument as to why Vitalogy really is one of the greats. One major theme is that it addresses fame and the struggle to retain purity in modern culture. It's the very first of it's kind.

I agree with you that it's one of the greats but, wow, it isn't the first album ever to do or be this.

I see someone referred to the White Album as that, but no way. First, the Beatles loved fame, second, the culture didn't twist fame at that point. Those days, when you were famous, it meant you actually did something. Second, name a band that did address that subject with a full album and was at an EQUAL level of fame that PJ was at the time. Vitalogy illustrates a vantage point at a very specific level of fame and celebrity, and it does it with a viewpoint that no one had ever had at that level of fame. I stand by it.

Moving the goalposts much? That wasn't what you said. You said Vitalogy was the first album to address those issues, I said it wasn't. Some bands make an entire career of addressing those issues, it's been part of a punk aesthetic long before Pearl Jam and even before Nirvana.

Apparently the goal posts are bands that have been together for not more than 5 years but no less than 3, putting out an album in the mid-90's after 2 highly successful albums with a lead guitar player that has Crohn's Disease. From that aspect, Pearl Jam was truly the first of their kind!

I like that this thread is 7 pages long.

twoheadedboy wrote:Also, Vitalogy isn't even the consensus best album from 1994 let alone all time.

Nirvana - Unplugged In New York
Green Day - Dookie
NIN - The Downward Spiral
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Pantera - Far Beyond Driven

I would definitely put Vitalogy in with those other 5, but to say it is the best out of all of them hands down is completely wrong. I'm pretty sure I'd take at least Superunknown over it. And front to back, I'd take No Code, or an alternate universe Binaural over Vitalogy. A 1995 Vitalogy with Jack on drums, including I Got Shit, Long Road, Lukin, and Hard To Imagine instead of the filler tracks though, would put it in my top 3 albums of all time by anybody.

Matt listed some other albums better than Vitalogy and I agree with most of them. Some others:

Band of Gypsies
Sgt. Pepper
Revolver
Exile On Main St.
Quadrophenia
Who's Next
Dark Side of the Moon
Joshua Tree
Nevermind
In Utero
Layla
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea
Surfer Rosa
Dirt
The Fragile
Edit: Pinkerton

All of those are more consistent and/or more impactful than Vitalogy IMO.

How could I forget Dookie?!

stip wrote:

twoheadedboy wrote:Also, Vitalogy isn't even the consensus best album from 1994 let alone all time.

Nirvana - Unplugged In New York
Green Day - Dookie
NIN - The Downward Spiral
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Pantera - Far Beyond Driven

I would definitely put Vitalogy in with those other 5, but to say it is the best out of all of them hands down is completely wrong. I'm pretty sure I'd take at least Superunknown over it. And front to back, I'd take No Code, or an alternate universe Binaural over Vitalogy. A 1995 Vitalogy with Jack on drums, including I Got Shit, Long Road, Lukin, and Hard To Imagine instead of the filler tracks though, would put it in my top 3 albums of all time by anybody.

Matt listed some other albums better than Vitalogy and I agree with most of them. Some others:

Band of Gypsies
Sgt. Pepper
Revolver
Exile On Main St.
Quadrophenia
Who's Next
Dark Side of the Moon
Joshua Tree
Nevermind
In Utero
Layla
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea
Surfer Rosa
Dirt
The Fragile
Edit: Pinkerton

All of those are more consistent and/or more impactful than Vitalogy IMO.

How could I forget Dookie?!

Sarcasm detected, but it's one of the greatest pop rock albums of all time. The melodies and hooks are phenomenal front to back and the drummer is phenomenal. I think Insomniac is a little better but it's just a small progression from what they did on Dookie.

I mean, one of Eddie's favorite bands is The Ramones, Green Day is to The Ramones as Pearl Jam is to The Who.

one of my favorite students spent several years working really hard to convince me that Green Day was awesome

twoheadedboy wrote:If Vitalogy is the struggle to maintain purity, Backspacer is them throwing in the towel and "Sirens" is them bending over and grabbing their ankles.

Only Sirens?

twoheadedboy wrote:

stip wrote:

twoheadedboy wrote:Also, Vitalogy isn't even the consensus best album from 1994 let alone all time.

Nirvana - Unplugged In New York
Green Day - Dookie
NIN - The Downward Spiral
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Pantera - Far Beyond Driven

I would definitely put Vitalogy in with those other 5, but to say it is the best out of all of them hands down is completely wrong. I'm pretty sure I'd take at least Superunknown over it. And front to back, I'd take No Code, or an alternate universe Binaural over Vitalogy. A 1995 Vitalogy with Jack on drums, including I Got Shit, Long Road, Lukin, and Hard To Imagine instead of the filler tracks though, would put it in my top 3 albums of all time by anybody.

Matt listed some other albums better than Vitalogy and I agree with most of them. Some others:

Band of Gypsies
Sgt. Pepper
Revolver
Exile On Main St.
Quadrophenia
Who's Next
Dark Side of the Moon
Joshua Tree
Nevermind
In Utero
Layla
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea
Surfer Rosa
Dirt
The Fragile
Edit: Pinkerton

All of those are more consistent and/or more impactful than Vitalogy IMO.

How could I forget Dookie?!

Sarcasm detected, but it's one of the greatest pop rock albums of all time. The melodies and hooks are phenomenal front to back and the drummer is phenomenal. I think Insomniac is a little better but it's just a small progression from what they did on Dookie.

I mean, one of Eddie's favorite bands is The Ramones, Green Day is to The Ramones as Pearl Jam is to The Who.

You start off talking about "consensus bests" and then go on to list all your personal favourites. Nice.

Which ones sold the most? Those are obviously the best.

Lament wrote:As someone who was sixteen when OK Computer came out and was as big of a Radiohead fan as you could find at the time, I have no problem with someone thinking Vitalogy is a better record. I prefer Vitalogy myself.

I absolutely agree with you. In 1997 I would have told you that In Utero, Vitalogy and Superunknown were the three greatest records ever made. Then I saw Radiohead and I bought OK Computer and my opinions started to change. I think both Vitalogy and OK Computer are brilliant records, but I think OK Computer is a better record on the whole.

The Bends > OK Computer > Kid A > Amnesiac is about as strong of a 4 album run as you'll find in any discography after the mid-70s. Actually, I think Kid A might be the greatest album ever made. I have to think about this some more.

stip wrote:

matt reeder wrote:

stip wrote:

matt reeder wrote:

stip wrote:

matt reeder wrote:

Thejambi wrote:Can someone Pm me the version of Pendulum that sounds remotely as phenomenal as Immortality?

Or the coda of "Not For You". Or the intro to "Better Man".

oh come on. Immortality, fine, but I would rather have pendulum on a record than a minute of noodling at the end of NFY or that little linking piece at the start of betterman

The intro to "Better Man" is, to me, the best part of the studio version. It's untouchable. It sets up the song perfectly, and I've always wished they would try it live. The guitar part at the end of "Not For You" is also the best part of the song, and wraps it up in an unexpected way that is perfectly fitting. The easy way out would be to end the song after a guitar solo; instead they ended it after a chiming, haunting reprise of the song's main chords further up the fretboard. Sheer genius.

Also, you're out of your fucking mind if you're prepared to argue that Vitalogy is the greatest album of all time, but I suspect you would be prepared to post 10 pages of arguments to prove your point. I mean, I love it as much as anything, and it's a top 20 album for me but it isn't on the same level as say OK Computer, Revolver or Daydream Nation (or, for that matter Pet Sounds, which has never been a favorite of mine but is frequently cited as one of the greatest albums ever made).

That is correct. It is a better album than those records, and as such is not on their level.

Opinions are like assholes, stip. Here are 12 more albums I think are as good or better than Vitalogy:

Sleater-Kinney - The Woods
Built to Spill - Perfect From Now On
Radiohead - Kid A
Paul Simon - Graceland
Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin IV
The Clash - London Calling
R.E.M. - Murmur
Pavement - Wowee Zowee
The Beatles - Abbey Road
Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot
My Bloody Valentine - Loveless
The Minutemen - Double Nickles on the Dime

In the end, it's just an opinion. You are entitled to yours but you should expect a lot of people to disagree with you strongly. One of my best friends will tell you that he thinks Uncle Tupelo's March 16-20, 1992 is the greatest album of all time. He could spend hours talking about it and used it as the inspiration for his graduate thesis. Does that make him right? Yes and no. Does it really matter? My favorite album of all time is Siamese Dream. I could spend hours telling you why I think it's one of the greatest albums of all time but that doesn't mean I expect other people to agree with me. That's what makes it my favorite album, but not the best album.

The four albums I cited in the previous post are often listed as 4 of the greatest albums ever recorded. Good luck trying to convince a large group of music lovers that Vitalogy is a better album than any of those, regardless of what you think of it.

Mind blown

Your mind should be blown. Siamese Dream is so good that even people who hate Smashing Pumpkins / Billy Corgan are forced to admit what a great album it is. It's one of the greatest guitar rock albums ever made, one of the best headphone albums ever made, and has some of the most godlike sections of music ever recorded (like, for example, the outro of "Hummer", the intros of "Cherub Rock", "Today", "Soma" and "Mayonaise" and the middle breakdown of "Geek U.S.A."). Its only flaw is its sometimes ridiculous, and frequently self-absorbed lyrics - and even that can be tolerated given the place Billy Corgan was at when he wrote them. I'm pretty subjective when it comes to that album, but objectively speaking it is a masterpiece.

This whole debate reminds me so much of debates you see on other music boards. I lurk a few other places and every time a band puts out a new album somebody will suggest that it's better than that particular band's best album. Some examples include a debate on the Soundgarden board over whether King Animal is better than Superunknown (it isn't), a debate over whether In Rainbows is better than either Kid A or OK Computer (you can make an argument that it is, but I don't agree), and my favorite, a debate over whether Oceania is better than Mellon Collie or Siamese Dream (no way in hell, though Oceania is surprisingly cromulent).

twoheadedboy wrote:Also, Vitalogy isn't even the consensus best album from 1994 let alone all time.

Nirvana - Unplugged In New York
Green Day - Dookie
NIN - The Downward Spiral
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Pantera - Far Beyond Driven

I really got into music in 1994 so I read a lot of newspaper and magazine reviews that year. The consensus for a lot of publications were Superunknown and Vitalogy were generally 2 of the 5 best albums released that year. The Downward Spiral, Live Through This and the first Oasis albums were on a lot of lists as well, and I suspect Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain and Illmatic will ultimately prove to be the two most influential albums released that year. Both are now seen as all-time classics, and rightfully so.

Dookie was seen as a good pop-punk album, which it most certainly is. Nobody really took Green Day seriously, but a lot of kids loved them.

We should steal a lot of babies and put them in the basement for 20 years without letting them gain any knowledge about music. Then we'll let them listen to all the albums and let them decide which ones are the best. There will be absolutely no bias and we will finally know what the best album is. And we'll know if The Beatles are really better than Pearl Jam.

Billy Corgan is well known for going door to door and forcing people to sing the praises of his records.

It's why I never answer a knock.

I have been listening to Siamese Dream a lot lately and it is pretty fucking sweet.

harmless wrote:

twoheadedboy wrote:

stip wrote:

twoheadedboy wrote:Also, Vitalogy isn't even the consensus best album from 1994 let alone all time.

Nirvana - Unplugged In New York
Green Day - Dookie
NIN - The Downward Spiral
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Pantera - Far Beyond Driven

I would definitely put Vitalogy in with those other 5, but to say it is the best out of all of them hands down is completely wrong. I'm pretty sure I'd take at least Superunknown over it. And front to back, I'd take No Code, or an alternate universe Binaural over Vitalogy. A 1995 Vitalogy with Jack on drums, including I Got Shit, Long Road, Lukin, and Hard To Imagine instead of the filler tracks though, would put it in my top 3 albums of all time by anybody.

Matt listed some other albums better than Vitalogy and I agree with most of them. Some others:

Band of Gypsies
Sgt. Pepper
Revolver
Exile On Main St.
Quadrophenia
Who's Next
Dark Side of the Moon
Joshua Tree
Nevermind
In Utero
Layla
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea
Surfer Rosa
Dirt
The Fragile
Edit: Pinkerton

All of those are more consistent and/or more impactful than Vitalogy IMO.

How could I forget Dookie?!

Sarcasm detected, but it's one of the greatest pop rock albums of all time. The melodies and hooks are phenomenal front to back and the drummer is phenomenal. I think Insomniac is a little better but it's just a small progression from what they did on Dookie.

I mean, one of Eddie's favorite bands is The Ramones, Green Day is to The Ramones as Pearl Jam is to The Who.

You start off talking about "consensus bests" and then go on to list all your personal favourites. Nice.

It's funny how you assume that list is my favorite albums of all time.

theplatypus wrote:I have been listening to Siamese Dream a lot lately and it is pretty fucking sweet.

That's not good enough.

He is coming.

matt reeder wrote:I'm pretty subjective when it comes to that album, but objectively speaking it is a masterpiece.

I can't believe no one has mentioned Hanson's Middle of Nowhere yet.

twoheadedboy wrote:

harmless wrote:

twoheadedboy wrote:

stip wrote:

twoheadedboy wrote:Also, Vitalogy isn't even the consensus best album from 1994 let alone all time.

Nirvana - Unplugged In New York
Green Day - Dookie
NIN - The Downward Spiral
Soundgarden - Superunknown
Pantera - Far Beyond Driven

I would definitely put Vitalogy in with those other 5, but to say it is the best out of all of them hands down is completely wrong. I'm pretty sure I'd take at least Superunknown over it. And front to back, I'd take No Code, or an alternate universe Binaural over Vitalogy. A 1995 Vitalogy with Jack on drums, including I Got Shit, Long Road, Lukin, and Hard To Imagine instead of the filler tracks though, would put it in my top 3 albums of all time by anybody.

Matt listed some other albums better than Vitalogy and I agree with most of them. Some others:

Band of Gypsies
Sgt. Pepper
Revolver
Exile On Main St.
Quadrophenia
Who's Next
Dark Side of the Moon
Joshua Tree
Nevermind
In Utero
Layla
In The Aeroplane Over The Sea
Surfer Rosa
Dirt
The Fragile
Edit: Pinkerton

All of those are more consistent and/or more impactful than Vitalogy IMO.

How could I forget Dookie?!

Sarcasm detected, but it's one of the greatest pop rock albums of all time. The melodies and hooks are phenomenal front to back and the drummer is phenomenal. I think Insomniac is a little better but it's just a small progression from what they did on Dookie.

I mean, one of Eddie's favorite bands is The Ramones, Green Day is to The Ramones as Pearl Jam is to The Who.

You start off talking about "consensus bests" and then go on to list all your personal favourites. Nice.

It's funny how you assume that list is my favorite albums of all time.

Is it? Do I?

http://rateyourmusic.com/customchart?pa ... countries=

Music fans have spoken. Vitalogy is the 95th best album of 1994.

This conversation is so weird.