Red Mosquito

Might as well post this now just to stir the pot:

Spoiler: show

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:and coach proves my point

warehouse wrote: lol @ one game sample. i agree about the team sport idea though, qb's get too much credit and too much blame for winning super bowls.

But if we're talking about the "greatest QB who ever lived," and the captain of the "greatest offense of all time," how do you not talk about the all-mighty one's playoff record?

If you don't believe in crowning a greatest QB of all-time for the reason you cite above, then you have a valid point, but I'm pretty sure that you do have an opinion on this....

i think super bowls and playoff record play a part in a qb's legacy, but it is a team game so that kinda stuff gets totally overstated. manning didnt play well last night, but i think most of that is b/c his line was completely overmatched. should manning's legacy be tarnished b/c his o line got its ass handed to them?

That's a tough game to play, because Brady's o-line didn't show up in his two Super Bowl losses. And my guess is that Montana was well protected in his four Super Bowl wins.

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:and coach proves my point

warehouse wrote: lol @ one game sample. i agree about the team sport idea though, qb's get too much credit and too much blame for winning super bowls.

But if we're talking about the "greatest QB who ever lived," and the captain of the "greatest offense of all time," how do you not talk about the all-mighty one's playoff record?

If you don't believe in crowning a greatest QB of all-time for the reason you cite above, then you have a valid point, but I'm pretty sure that you do have an opinion on this....

i think super bowls and playoff record play a part in a qb's legacy, but it is a team game so that kinda stuff gets totally overstated. manning didnt play well last night, but i think most of that is b/c his line was completely overmatched. should manning's legacy be tarnished b/c his o line got its ass handed to them?

That's a tough game to play, because Brady's o-line didn't show up in his two Super Bowl losses. And my guess is that Montana was well protected in his four Super Bowl wins.

i know its tough, thats why we always have these debates. there's no 'wayne gretzky' of qb's, you can make an argument for like 3-5 people being the best ever.

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:

Coach wrote:

warehouse wrote:and coach proves my point

warehouse wrote: lol @ one game sample. i agree about the team sport idea though, qb's get too much credit and too much blame for winning super bowls.

But if we're talking about the "greatest QB who ever lived," and the captain of the "greatest offense of all time," how do you not talk about the all-mighty one's playoff record?

If you don't believe in crowning a greatest QB of all-time for the reason you cite above, then you have a valid point, but I'm pretty sure that you do have an opinion on this....

i think super bowls and playoff record play a part in a qb's legacy, but it is a team game so that kinda stuff gets totally overstated. manning didnt play well last night, but i think most of that is b/c his line was completely overmatched. should manning's legacy be tarnished b/c his o line got its ass handed to them?

That's a tough game to play, because Brady's o-line didn't show up in his two Super Bowl losses. And my guess is that Montana was well protected in his four Super Bowl wins.

i know its tough, thats why we always have these debates. there's no 'wayne gretzky' of qb's, you can make an argument for like 3-5 people being the best ever.

Agreed, Boomer Esiason said something on the radio the other day, that regardless of last night's outcome, there's Brady, Manning, Montana on "Mt Rushmore" and then 2-3 other guys perhaps a step down from that. In general, I think that's how all of this ends up.

There's no Michael Jordan of QB's either!

warehouse wrote:i know its tough, thats why we always have these debates. there's no 'wayne gretzky' of qb's, you can make an argument for like 3-5 people being the best ever.

Plus, the very nature of the rules of hockey (and basketball) makes this easier. It's just the opposite for football and baseball.

Green Habit wrote:

warehouse wrote:i know its tough, thats why we always have these debates. there's no 'wayne gretzky' of qb's, you can make an argument for like 3-5 people being the best ever.

Plus, the very nature of the rules of hockey (and basketball) makes this easier. It's just the opposite for football and baseball.

so its something like: montana, brady, manning, foles, elway, marino

+1 for the Green Habit account, by the way.

After New England's recent crappy play in the playoffs, I've made a point to come on here afterward, take my medicine, and give a shout out to the winning team.

Good to see Green Habit back here alive and well.

warehouse wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

warehouse wrote:i know its tough, thats why we always have these debates. there's no 'wayne gretzky' of qb's, you can make an argument for like 3-5 people being the best ever.

Plus, the very nature of the rules of hockey (and basketball) makes this easier. It's just the opposite for football and baseball.

so its something like: montana, brady, manning, foles, elway, marino

Now tell me how many INTs and sacks Brian Dawkins could have compiled on each one of those QBs if he played against them for their entire careers, twice a year.

ill need a pretty badass calculator to figure that out, but there is definitely no 'brian dawkins' of qbs

Coach wrote:+1 for the Green Habit account, by the way.

After New England's recent crappy play in the playoffs, I've made a point to come on here afterward, take my medicine, and give a shout out to the winning team.

Good to see Green Habit back here alive and well.

Thanks. I obviously woke up late today, so it took a while, but waiting a day/week or whatever doesn't change the past. I will say that the amount of medicine I'm taking is pretty small. I knew that the Seahawks were more than capable of winning--just didn't think they would put up a 40+ spot. I'm also quite grateful of what the Broncos did this season nonetheless.

warehouse wrote:ill need a pretty badass calculator to figure that out, but there is definitely no 'brian dawkins' of qbs

Hmmmm, I did build a salary cap calculator, so that might be the next logical project....

Peyton Manning: Greatest Little Game Quarterback of All-Time

and yeah, lol @ one game sample

--- wrote:Peyton Manning: Greatest Little Game Quarterback of All-Time

Nonsense and you know it. You're too intelligent to believe that, so enjoy trolling. This is certainly the day to do it, so go for it.

can we consider thomas not one of the greatest ever since they havent won any SB since they were busted for cheating?

warehouse wrote:no, last night was one of many games peyton manning has lost in the playoffs. i understand what you are saying, but playoff losses are the biggest stain on his great career. thats why i dont think it was just a one game sample, or why most people wont look at it like that.

seattle was just better everywhere last night. that might have been the most lopsided super bowl ive ever seen.

You're right, obviously playoff losses have been the biggest (only?) blemish on his resume. And last night added another one, so like you said, many people won't look at as a one game sample. That doesn't mean they're right to do so. You said yourself that Seattle was just plain better, and it obviously wasn't close.

People who want to believe that Manning chokes in big games have another game they can point to where this supposedly occurred. It's a classic case of confirmation bias. People have already chosen the narrative they believe in, and eagerly take any evidence that supports their claim while ignoring any evidence to the contrary. (See: Romo, 4th quarters) So the Broncos lose (team, not an individual) and last night was a big game that Manning choked away. Broncos beat the Pats in the AFC Championship, "well the Pats were beat up and the Broncos should have won"; that is probably true, but had the Broncos lost it would have been another big game choke for Manning, no matter how it occurred. At least that one would have made sense, playing at home against an inferior/overachieving injured team.

My belief is simple: Manning's entire career to this point is more indicative of his relative greatness as a QB than any single outcome, including all three Super Bowls. His playoff record has absolutely been substandard, and I understand this being a knock against him, for some people a major knock. Personally, I believe he is the best ever despite that, because I believe that while playoff success is a factor, my opinion is that it doesn't trump everything else. So that's my bias. But I'm also claiming that I wouldn't have shown up here today had the Broncos won claiming that last night was "proof" that he's the best.

4/5 wrote:

--- wrote:Peyton Manning: Greatest Little Game Quarterback of All-Time

Nonsense and you know it. You're too intelligent to believe that, so enjoy trolling. This is certainly the day to do it, so go for it.

Peyton is tough to judge for me. I think he is a top 10 QB without a doubt. His post season numbers are not that bad if you look at them in a vacuum. The stat I can't get past is he has had only 1 game winning drive/4th Quarter comeback in his post season career( Brady 7/4, Elway 6/4, Montana 5/5).
He is the all time regular season leader in both with 51 and 40 respectively.

Last night was a total failure on the the Broncos part. I don't think Manning could of saved the game but I don't think he played well either.

Thejambi wrote:
Peyton is tough to judge for me. I think he is a top 10 QB without a doubt. His post season numbers are not that bad if you look at them in a vacuum. The stat I can't get past is he has had only 1 game winning drive/4th Quarter comeback in his post season career( Brady 7/4, Elway 6/4, Montana 5/5).
He is the all time regular season leader in both with 51 and 40 respectively.
.

Just curious - how many postseason games have been close enough for a game winning drive opportunity for Manning? I don't know the answer. But, its much more telling if he's had them and failed, and the other guys haven't. But, if the games haven't been close at the end, well he's not going to have those chances, right?

EJ wrote:

Thejambi wrote:
Peyton is tough to judge for me. I think he is a top 10 QB without a doubt. His post season numbers are not that bad if you look at them in a vacuum. The stat I can't get past is he has had only 1 game winning drive/4th Quarter comeback in his post season career( Brady 7/4, Elway 6/4, Montana 5/5).
He is the all time regular season leader in both with 51 and 40 respectively.
.

Just curious - how many postseason games have been close enough for a game winning drive opportunity for Manning? I don't know the answer. But, its much more telling if he's had them and failed, and the other guys haven't. But, if the games haven't been close at the end, well he's not going to have those chances, right?

8 losses by 10 points or less ( 1,3,3,3,4,6,6,10)
4 losses by 11 points or more (14,17,41,35)
1 shut out

I don't know the context, maybe he got them close in those losses but fell short.